Ancient Rome and Dragons

[Druico]

Hey guys,

Been tossing this idea around for a while now and just wanted some general feedback of the concept. Two things I love writing about are Dragons and ancient history and so I thought why not put them together. In my head I'm seeing it as an almost alternative historical fiction type of novel/story. So encompassing real characters/people as well as wars and battles, but adding in the element of dragons and dragon riding, specifically in a military aspect.

How would this work in terms of a 'good read'? One of the inspirations for this type of story was 'Temeraire' by Naomi Novik, who added dragons into a Napoleon era and I think added it well.

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated

Thanks guys,
Dan

 

[mtzGr]

I'm about done with the 5th Temeraire book and they're quite fun reads. Ancient Rome is an interesting time period so go for it, but it would very much seem like "Temeraire in Rome". Her books are paced very fast with a rotating cast of characters, some more stable than others. You might want to take a different approach with a slower pace within a smaller scope.

 

[Druico]

I think if I was going to write something like that, the story would follow a group of characters so a particular cohort.

I've not personally read the series yet, it was just the idea that interested me and putting dragons and magic into ancient civilisations. Which over time the records of these events have been forgotten or deleted from history.

 

[mtzGr]

I think if I was going to write something like that, the story would follow a group of characters so a particular cohort.

I've not personally read the series yet, it was just the idea that interested me and putting dragons and magic into ancient civilisations. Which over time the records of these events have been forgotten or deleted from history.

I suggest you read at least the first book if you are thinking of doing the same thing.

 

[Druico]

I do intend to, it's sitting on my shelf as we speak. Although I'm not looking to encompass any of the ideas from the series into my own story.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Oohh let me guess - barbarians at the gate and dragons inside waiting for them?!

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Druico]

Helpful.

 

[Kerrybuchanan]

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Not meant to be helpful - just amusing. But ignore that side of it and start to think what would be different if there were dragons in those ancient times and people capable of riding them. Unless you limit the abilities of dragons desperately - and personally I wouldn't like that - then no single conflict of ancient Rome would have gone as it did. I mean imagine Rome trying to conquore Britain. What if the ancient Brits, gauls, huns, goths etc had dragons. How could Rome possibly have won? Alternatively if Rome had had them, how could the others have survived / held out for even a month? It's like introducing airpower and missiles to a primitive society. Put the US airforce up against a few thousand sheep herders with spears and see how they'd do.

It's just a very unequal military strength.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Druico]

Hi,

Yeah I understand what you mean. But could it also not work the other way. Say the Gauls, Celts, Carthaginians etc had access to dragons as well as Rome, would that not just cancel the strengths of each other out. In the same way as if firearms were introduced into that era. Rome was victorious because of the strength and training of it's military and it's leaders. Imagine a centurion spending years training alongside his dragon, compared to a guy jumping on the back of a dragon to defend his home. This is still historically accurate, aside from the Dragon, the Roman military was just better.

So could it not also work that way, with Rome's thirst to control the entire dragon species being a catalyst to expand it's empire. Although met with heavy and brave resistance, the sheer power of Rome and her military proves just to great, until it's internal collapse.

Just a thought.

Thanks,
Dan

 

[Phyrebrat]

It's all in the execution. Just be careful and I'm sure you can make it work.

Regarding the overpowering imbalance of strength, you could limit it so that there's only one, or few, dragons.

pH

 

[Druico]

But even if say Rome had at it's disposal 5,000 dragons. It's enemy, Gaul had 20,000 untrained and untamed dragons, just thrown into the army and forced to fight. Would this not counter balance the element of being overpowered. As this would also reflect the number of opposition the Roman army would face.

 

[Piousflea84]

If you want to keep things reasonably historically grounded, it's best to think of Dragons as a metaphor for some real-world phenomenon. Dragons in the medieval-to-Napoleonic era are often used as a metaphor for gunpowder weapons. This is a bit obvious - Dragoons were named after dragons after all - although it fails to account for the inherent strategic differences between ground troops and airpower. Much like F-15s and Hellfire missiles, dragons are very effective at destroying enemy troops but absolutely terrible for keeping the peace... ie Daenaerys in Mereen (A Dance with Dragons).

However, there weren't any firearms in the Roman era so we have to find a different dragon-metaphor. Onagers and ballistas are not a good dragon analogy as they lack both mobility and firepower.

Cavalry would be an interesting analogy for dragons. It would be really fun to play around with different types of dragons substituting for light cavalry, heavy cavalry, chariots, horse archers, camel archers, war elephants etc. Compared to infantry, cavalry have high mobility and excellent open-field lethality (very dragon-like) but suffer from limited usefulness in urban combat. This latter point is a very important strategic weakness of cavalry-dragons, a weakness which mythical dragons typically lack. You will need to come up with a very good reason why dragons are weak against cities. It is possible that all big cities maintain a cohort of very well equipped dragon slayers (fire resistance gear, Arrows of Slay Dragon, etc) or may even some kind of domain-effect ritual magic. ("Bernoulli's Aerodynamic Sphere: 60 mana, 10 upkeep. Negates all magical flight effects within the caster's domain. A magical flying creature that enters this sphere will fall to the ground, taking damage based on their altitude and size class")

 

[Druico]

Hey mate,

Thanks for that info! I think the dragons would take the role of cavalry pretty well, perhaps weak individually but strong together. Could have different types, so heavier siege type dragons, slow but powerful and faster more 'fighter' dragons.

I think it would be something fun to write at the very least. I think dragon hunters would be a feasible option. It would be the same as any war, if your enemy controls a weapon or power you look at ways to counter it. For example tanks and then the subsequent anti-tank weapons. Could be the same with dragons, and anti-air siege weapons. Perhaps a ward/magic or something that cities employ that prevents dragons being near. Not sure what I could apply there, would need to think!

 

[Vladd67]

Of course you could have the Druids summoning a dragon in the defence of Anglesey, followed by a Roman officer learning how to control the dragon and using it to defeat Boudica, and then declaring himself emperor of the Drago Empire leading his men against Rome.

 

[Piousflea84]

The great thing about using Dragons as a metaphor for cavalry is that the Roman Empire was traditionally weak in cavalry but strong in infantry. So you would have a gargantuan Empire that doesn't monopolize dragon-power but instead is really good at countering dragon-power. IMO, that's more unique and much more fun than the usual "dragons = cannons" metaphor where the biggest empires have the biggest dragons.

Historically speaking, the Romans kept a well-equipped reserve of triarii who were called up to reinforce the most heavily-hit parts of the battle line. I could imagine the alternate-Romans putting veteran dragonslayers into each century of triarii because they'd probably have to face dragons.

I'd also love to see the dragon-world version of anti-cavalry stakes... obviously a spike in the ground wouldn't keep your flank safe from a dragon charge, you would need some kind of magical ward. If cities are protected by air-sphere magic then there should be a lesser version of the same spell. This opens up the possibility for all sorts of subterfuge - if a spy can disable the enemy regiment's anti-dragon ward, they will quickly become dragon food. Such an item must be heavily protected!

 

[mtzGr]

Hi,

Not meant to be helpful - just amusing. But ignore that side of it and start to think what would be different if there were dragons in those ancient times and people capable of riding them. Unless you limit the abilities of dragons desperately - and personally I wouldn't like that - then no single conflict of ancient Rome would have gone as it did. I mean imagine Rome trying to conquore Britain. What if the ancient Brits, gauls, huns, goths etc had dragons. How could Rome possibly have won? Alternatively if Rome had had them, how could the others have survived / held out for even a month? It's like introducing airpower and missiles to a primitive society. Put the US airforce up against a few thousand sheep herders with spears and see how they'd do.

It's just a very unequal military strength.

Cheers, Greg.

Your view is a bit myopic. Of course things will not go exactly the same historically, it is fiction and there are dragons. But why must only one nation have dragons? Why can't civilizations have been cultivating their military ranks and strategies for centuries with dragons? Naomi Novik manages quite well with a fast fun read.

 

[Druico]

Yeah the way I was imagined it, was that Dragons wouldn't be this rare mythological creature. They would be a standard 'animal' although intelligent and powerful in their own right. As man did with horses for example, they saw how they could be utilised to serve their own purpose.

Perhaps the reasons behind a lot of Rome's conquests in foreign lands was to quell a rising dragon force that could present a threat to the balance of not only the growing Empire but also the natural order. That could include individuals such as Druids or another figure that is perhaps altering or corrupting their dragons, something along those lines.

 

[Mirannan]

I think dragons would have a similar effect to modern airpower in many ways. IIRC from my reading, ancient Rome was heavily reliant not only on infantry but on heavy infantry fighting in close order - ruinous if the other side has even one dragon. IMHO Rome might well never have arisen at all, and if it did would be very different from the real world - using far more cavalry (and maybe dragons of its own) and light skirmish troops.

Also, a lot depends on how tractable dragons are and also (the two are connected!) how powerful they are. There's an awful lot of difference between (low end) a Pernese brown dragon and Smaug at the high end. As for something like Ancalagon the Black - well, let's just not go there.

Incidentally, powerful and large area battle magic would have the same effects. Legion of Roman infantry in close order versus half-decent D&D wizard...

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Pernese brown dragon

Only a genetically engineered fire lizard. The Romans could shoot it down with a modified ballista. They could put a wooden stake through a stone wall.

The heaviest versions could shoot up to three talents (78 kg), possibly much more

Interesting suggestion here that it was mostly adopted Greek Tech.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_siege_engines#Early_Roman_ballista
There were versions for firing stones or giant sharpened posts