Enchanter or Sorcerer?

[Ray McCarthy]

The bad guy in Kevlin and the Enchanter is referred to as the Evil Enchanter (in 1st draft the Black Enchanter, copying from Celtic legends ... but I went off that).

But perhaps "Sorcerer" is better than "Evil Enchanter" (no prefix)?

Then maybe Kevlin and the Sorcerer as title?

Is it silly calling him Kevlin rather than Kevin (He's not Irish, but born and bred in an "Otherworld"), it is a Celtic inspired YA Fantasy.

What about US Market?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Is it silly calling him Kevlin rather than Kevin

I always read it as "Kevin."

I believe that Donaldson had a "Lord Kevin" in his Thomas Convenant series - and gets a bit of stick for that...

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I prefer Enchanter but wouldn't blink at either.

Re the US market - they like Ireland (in all our quaintness ) and I can't see a problem.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I prefer Enchanter

The "good guys" have Enchanters, so at the minute he is always called the "Evil Enchanter" (which is sort of a title, the most recent of many pests).
I've not mentioned "Sorcerers" so the bad guy could be the only one, a successor to the previous Sorcerer?
Sort of like "Dread Pirate Roberts" idea. What you think?

 

[Ray McCarthy]

I always read it as "Kevin."

So is the girl Megan or Megra ?
As she isn't human, Megan would be wrong.

Actually I try to make made up names seem familiar. I (and my wife even more) don't like unpronounceable names. Which is actually a snag in an Irish /Celtic Legend inspired fantasy with the REAL names!
Some very very old real names are easy:
Donal
Bran

Some are OK for Irish people
Naimh
Siobhan
Sionna
(s is ALWAYS "sh" and gh, mh, bh etc are special single consonants)

Some even scholars and even most Irish people haven't a clue. So some names a so much important as actual people mentioned in myth they have the real Irish names, which seem more made up than my made up ones.

Some are surprising:
Sons of Manannán Mac Lir:
Sgoith Gleigeil, = Sgoith [the] White Flower
Goitne Gorm-Shuileach, = Goite [of the] Blue-eyed Spear
Sine Sindearg, = Sheena [of the] Red Ring
Donall Donn-Ruadh= Donal [of the] Red-brown Hair.
(Not to be confused with Children of Lêr, Welsh Legend mentions Manannán's siblings)

Sine was a bloke. Today it's a girls name. I can't find anyone that's sure about Sgoith, or Goitne, made up names are easier!

I modernise some spellings such as Tara instead of Teamhair (see, the "mh" is a SINGLE consonant) which might have been more like "Tawere" (but not quite).

So it's convention anyway that fantasy is mostly in ordinary English as if translated (only two characters actually really speak English).

 

[Juliana]

Personally I prefer Enchanter (less obvious than Sorcerer), and I also prefer Kevlin. Kevlin sounds rather quaint and different. Kevin makes me want to call him 'Kev' and offer him a pint.
(nothing against Kevins, my dad's middle name is Kevin and all that. Just doesn't sound very fairytaleish)

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

I'd completely forgotten High Lord Kevin - but he really wasn't a front and centre player in the work.

If it's Celtic though, perhaps Devlin might be a better choice.

As for enchanter vs sorcerer, I don't think it makes much of a difference. I don't think either is particularly associated with either good or bad. If you want a dark wizard, I'd tend to go with one of the "mancers" - Necromancer, pyromancer etc. I don't know how they'd work for a title.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

If you want a dark wizard, I'd tend to go with one of the "mancers" - Necromancer,

I'll keep that in mind for non-Celtic related. I'd not heard of Pyromancer. Sounds like hot stuff. Necromancer doesn't spring to mind as being part of the background mythos. But since most of it is made up anyway, maybe possible.
These people are only "Celtic" in the sense of people descended 600 years later from Beowolf era being "British" but without Angles, Saxons, Normans, Danes etc ...

 

[HareBrain]

I don't know that I've ever heard of "Kevlin" before, and wanted to read it as "Kelvin" (which, for school-related reasons, did not endear him to me). But now I realise it's not Kelvin, I like it.

On the subject of High Lord Kevin, BTW, I sniggered when I first came across his name in Lord Foul's Bane, but I now think Donaldson was quite clever and/or brave to do that, because it helped make his fantasy land seem real. Not because it contained a name from our world, but because no invented fantasy world would have included it. If that makes sense.

Re enchanter/sorcerer, I'm afraid that cultural exposure has rendered both terms rather non-threatening as far as I'm concerned, in the same way as "wizard". Funnily enough, I treat "magician" more seriously, despite the existence of stage magicians. But that might be because I've read a fair bit about "real" magicians, ie occultists.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Re the US market - they like Ireland (in all our quaintness )

We certainly do! And that is exactly why.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

There's a whole bunch of them - more than I'd realised. I found this thread on mancers: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100623200401AASRHho

Cheers, Greg

 

[Ray McCarthy]

But they sound a bit more than usually made up.

Spiritmancer, Electromancer, Frostmancer, Aquamancer, and Terramancers

TBH I'm bit sceptical of Pyromancer too.
I've read lots about Necromancy, it's even in the Old Testament.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Gene Wolfe had vivimancers...

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Lots of people seem to have vivimancers. But seems a modern idea. I'd never heard of them.

Here's a thought. To avoid an SF or Fantasy book becoming outdated, set it / do it (in your mind) perhaps 20 to 40 years ago, with stuff you really experienced then (I know this is harder for younger writers) but without slang, pop culture or discredited science, nothing that would seem out of place TODAY or then.
So maybe a Cell phone / Mobile phone, but no mention if CDMA, Analogue, GSM, 3G, LTE etc.
Presentations: no detail of the display device.
Internet: No mention of actual big name companies (where is Altavista, Netscape, MySpace?)

So for the fantasy / otherworld / Historical novel no recent pop culture stuff (that might be forgotten in 5 years). Anything Generic (things or language) from 20 to 40 years ago that could be in today's contemporary novel and not seem old or outdate will likely still not seem outdated or old in 50 years.
Obviously actual Machines, inventions, plants, fabric, animals should be internally logically consistent with your world.

I think too with this principal there is less American English / British English difficulty as then you're less likely using idioms or slang only known one side of the Pond.

So I've written one series as if it was really starting about 1990s, but absolutely no indication it's not starting today. Apart from maybe one or two subtle hints. "Kevlin and the Enchanter" due to internal logic has to go from 1970s to today (or even actually 1930s if you analyse it carefully), so I've been excising any description in the narration that wouldn't have been used in mid 1970s. The sequel, if there is one, would need "Today" stuff though. That's pretty standard were time seems to pass quicker for us than the Otherworld (which is oddly physically possible if the people not on Earth are travelling at a high fraction of speed of light compared to us)

 

[Avid Scifi Fan]

You could always use something like wizard, druid, magician, sorcerer, shamen, etc.

I think the name also depends the type of magic and the setting location.

I've been influenced by games too much, because I think of an enchanter as someone who make magical equipment. Where as I think of the wizard and sorcerer as using all types of magic.

Just my thoughts, hope they help.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Magic approximately as per oldest Irish legends. Sadly I don't have the Irish Manuscripts (it would great if someone finds the missing Yellow book of Slane. Maybe one of my characters should have it!) nor can I read Irish, so I don't know what Irish word is being translated to Enchanter and Wizard.
Enchanters, Wizards, Druid magic are the 3 commonest. Shape changing is common by Druids or Enchanters. The most powerful non-druids are Enchanters.
Some magi are translated as Magician, but perhaps more commonly in Welsh Celtic.
Shaman wouldn't exist at all.
Magical things are usually of unexplained origin, or occasionally by anyone magical. Potions are common in the actual legends. eg. Tristan and Isolde

 

[tinkerdan]

If the difference between Sorcerer and Enchanter come to mind as an issue, then perhaps just checking to see what the reader might find in definition of the two and what might make them somewhat different from each other, might make a better case for one or the other.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Just a thought. Witch and Warlock are both options and have mostly negative connotations.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

If the difference between Sorcerer and Enchanter come to mind as an issue

Probably I didn't explain well,
The good guys have Magi (people that do magic). The most powerful are called Enchanters.
The magical bad guy has some Magi too, but mostly bad groups such as Fomorians, Scandinavian origin mercenaries and Ogers, currently I just call him the "Evil Enchanter". I've no-one called "Sorcerer", so perhaps that would work.
The good guys leader and the chief bad guy are both the most powerful enchanters in their world.

Witch and Warlock are both options and have mostly negative connotations.

Yes, they are, though less "old Irish Celtic", and witches have had a lot of rehabilitation. Not so negative with Terry Pratchett and perhaps the neo-pagan Wiccans.

Witch can be man or woman but seems a little more British.
Warlock is quite good, but seems unlikely for peoples descended from Irish Proto Celts.

From Middle English warloghe, warlowe, warloȝe, from Old English wǣrloga (“traitor, deceiver”, literally “truce-breaker”), from wǣr (“covenant, truce, pact, promise”) (from Proto-Indo-European *wēr- (“true”); compare veritable) + loga (“liar”), from lēogan ( > English lie); the ending in -ck is from Scottish & Northern English. Cognate with Old High German wārlogo (“truce-breaker, traitor”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/warlock
It's sometimes claimed to be Male Witch, but others say that's quite wrong. Seems to be a only really Scotland from 16th C that the Male Witch idea arose.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=warlock

I may go with Sorcerer (even though stereotypical) or Warlock. The idea of Oath Breaker / Traitor (Warlock) actually sort of fits as he is a Tuath Dé leading Fomorians.

In that case the "good guys" would call him Warlock, but he would call himself the Lord Enchanter of the North.

 

[Azraeth]

I prefer Enchanter but wouldn't blink at either.

Re the US market - they like Ireland (in all our quaintness ) and I can't see a problem.

Though wasn't 'Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone' changed to 'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone' because it was thought the American market would object to connotations of children and witchcraft?