Separating Myth and Fact.

[Ray McCarthy]

Myth is fun, I enjoy it for its own sake. Of course for many years I've known that many myths and legends have a degree of history in them, or are a kind of proto-history.

“After 30 years of research in the geosciences I believe that the analysis of myths is hugely important,” Nunn says. “It can help bridge the gap between geological theory and human history and lead to scientific insights.”

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150318-why-volcano-myths-are-true

The Scandinavian pantheon of Odin, Thor, Freya etc based on real tribes of Vanir and Æsir.
Æsir–Vanir War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Æsir

Who exactly were the early Celts?
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31905764

It's interesting to try and link the Book of Invasions and other Irish myth / Proto-history to archaeological evidence.
Or sift the very earliest Atlantean references for some Atlantic region fact (rather than assume it talks about an Island that really sank, which would be INSIDE the Med.)

Studies support the theory that the volcanic disaster of Plato's story of Atlantis relates to the Santorini eruption. “And once archeologists began to dig on Santorini they looked to the legend as a form of validation of what they were finding,” says John Dvorak, a geoscientist at the University of Hawaii, US.

Perhaps Plato merged this story with another story, as he clearly is talking of a civilisation beyond the Med. (Pillars of Hercules). A slightly later Greek says most of the Plato story was made up, but that the rulers of three large islands and many smaller ones had much influence in Europe. (GB, Isle of Man and Ireland?) The Bronze Age in Ireland was about 2400 BC to 560 BC, and very much copper was exported (over 370 tonnes based on analysis of mines found in Co. Cork)

Plato lived about 428BC to 347BC, so writing about 150 to 200 years after the end of the Bronze age in Ireland.

The Fir-Bolg and Tuatha Dé Danann had to have been early Bronze Age (Copper) and Bronze Age. The Milesians, early proto-Celts at the start of the Iron Age.

About 90% of lowland forest was cleared by Bronze Age people. This resulted later in increase in Blanket Peat Bog and why "bog oak" stumps exist. Silly me, I thought the English cut down the Irish forests in 15th to 17th Centuries.

Like the Vanir and Æsir of Scandinavia (diefied by later people), the Fir-Bolg and Tuatha Dé Danann chiefs or kings (real or imaginary) were diefied by pre-Christian Celts well before 400AD. Actually it's only the 5th Century and later Christian writers that rename Tuath Dé (Tribe of God) to Tuatha Dé Danann (People of Goddess Danu) and any references (which are slight) to Danú or Danu then appear.

An unanswered question so far is who exactly was the "God" of the Tuath Dé? It's obviously later Celtic nonsense to suggest Dagda and early Christian nonsense to suggest Danú.

The Danae (Sea People known to Greeks), Phoenicians or Tribe of Dan can't have any Tuath Dé (Tuatha De Danann) connection. Their sea faring is too late, the art is wrong, and "Danann" is a name added nearly 1000 years after the Tuath Dé existed!

Of course now we know too that Gilgamesh and Nimrod were probably real and where they lived.

Much on the Internet about Celtic mythology and Tuath Dé / Tuatha De Danann is laced with a lot of new age, fantasy fan fic, and neo-paganism.

I shall add more musing later. Feel free to add your own decrypting of myth & legend.

Next I'll look at Bronze Age Irish Art.

 

[Brian G Turner]

A slightly later Greek says most of the Plato story was made up, but that the rulers of three large islands and many smaller ones had much influence in Europe.

I've also seen the Scilly Isles suggested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isles_of_Scilly#Ancient_history

A staging post for Cornish tin is certainly credible, especially as the Ancient Greeks were aware of Alba before the Scilly Isles were submerged.

It's certainly possible that Plato might have have confused, or condensed, multiple accounts into one.

 

[Ray McCarthy]

Bronze of course needs tin and copper. We know it's likely a vast amount of Bronze age copper in Western Europe came from Co. Cork. Certainly Cornish tin sounds credible, though there were tin sources used in what's now Germany [Edit probably the ones I'm thinking of are Mediaeval, but approximately true].

The very early Bronze age is actually the Copper Age (Chalcolithic), perhaps 2500BC to 2200BC in Ireland.

The different "ages" are of course at different dates in different regions. Irish Written history apart from boundary markers or other engraved stones is very late compared to Middle East, Egyptian, Greek and Roman, starting about the 5th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_age (Generally)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Ireland (Prehistoric Ireland)

Copper used in the manufacture of bronze was mined in Ireland, chiefly in the southwest of the island, while the tin was imported from Cornwall in Britain. The earliest known copper mine in these islands was located at Ross Island, at the Lakes of Killarney in County Kerry; mining and metalworking took place there between 2400 and 1800 BC. Another of Europe's best-preserved copper mines has been discovered at Mount Gabriel in County Cork, which was worked for several centuries in the middle of the second millennium.[10] Mines in Cork and Kerry are believed to have produced as much as 370 tonnes of copper during the Bronze Age. As only about 0.2% of this can be accounted for in excavated bronze artefacts, it is surmised that Ireland was a major exporter of copper during this period.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times

Europe has very few sources of tin. It was therefore of extreme importance throughout ancient times to import it long distances from known tin mining districts of antiquity, namely Erzgebirge along the modern border between Germany and Czech Republic, the Iberian Peninsula, Brittany in modern France, and Devon and Cornwall in southwestern Britain (Benvenuti et al. 2003, p. 56; Valera & Valera 2003, p. 11). Another minor source of tin is known to exist at Monte Valerio in Tuscany, Italy. This source was exploited by Etruscan miners around 800 BCE, but it was not a significant source of tin for the rest of the Mediterranean (Benvenuti et al. 2003). The Etruscans themselves found the need to import tin from the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula at that time and later from Cornwall (Penhallurick 1986, p. 80).

The Spanish tin source seems close to Spanish Celtic areas?

 

[Faisal Shamas]

Those who believe in myths are actually themselves incapable of the art of mythmaking. As for some history, a thorough research of everything is necessary. In this I follow a general rule, "Believe rather in musings of a single individual poet rather than myth engraved in stone by a group."