Novel length (word count)

Kerrybuchanan

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I know this has probably been discussed many times in different threads, but a couple of people have asked the question again here recently.

Can anyone please give advice, or link to a previous thread that advises about the expected word count in the different genres and types for a first novel?

I have read conflicting advice in different places but had aimed for approximately 100k words for my first novel, high fantasy and potentially a trilogy. The first draft weighed in at just under 130k. Now I am completely rewriting it without reference to the first draft, just generally following most of the same plot arcs, but instead of condensing and tightening it seems to have spread nearly as much as my waistline over the Christmas festivities and is looking like it will finish around 200k plus.

Am I better to try and get two books out of it, or should I continue on with the one volume (bearing in mind I already have a second book with the same characters at first draft stage) and hope an agent or publisher is so knocked over by the incredible skill of my prose and the originality of my plots (ha!) that they offer me an incredible on contract based on reading the first sentence? Or maybe I should give up altogether and go find a job that actually pays money...?
 
I think 200k makes it a hard sell for a newbie author, even in the bloat of epic fantasy. But bear in mind you should trim that 200k when you edit this draft. The advice to cut rather than add on a second draft is pretty universal.
 
I used to worry about word counts - but ultimately it's all about have the right number of words to tell your story.

I met a publishing house editor at one of last year's cons - he asked what my WIP word count was. I replied 190k. He nodded, and said it would probably come down to 140k.

In other words, expect to cut - and learn to do so, ruthlessly!

EDIT: Here's a thread where we discussed word counts for epic fantasy specifically:
http://www.sffchronicles.com/threads/539481/
 
200k is too high for a debut, I fear, unless you're Patrick Rothfuss or something... (not saying you're not, etc. etc) My first book was 160k to start - it's now at 106 and much better for it. Only one person's debut book, that I've read (unpublished) is long and justifies the word count (but it's far from their first book, and they are a writing god). Most are improved by some drastic pruning.

Anyway, I think you're worrying too soon. Has this been beta read or edited? I bet when that happens it comes down a bit. And is every scene strictly neccessary, and been reviewed and edited a few times for tightening? Etc etc.
 
@Brian Turner Thank you. Very useful thread.

@springs No, no betas yet except for the first chapter which went down well. I am waiting until I have the thing finished again before I look for betas in case I give up in disgust part way and then I would have wasted their goodwill and time. I'm certain it can be trimmed down and I usually don't have any qualms about trimming, so hopefully I am worrying prematurely.
 
If it can be chopped into two stories that work on their own with less violence than making it half size, then that might the route.
 
My first draft came in at 190k. I got it down to 150k (eventually) and it's now come back to 160k because parts of it felt too uncomfortably over-tightened.

So I'm fairly confident it doesn't need cutting more, and none of its readers has said it does. However, after multiple form rejections from agents, I was at last advised by one that the length might well have been responsible for it being rejected without any other feedback. If that's true (it might not be, of course) then I think you might do better to cut it in two, if that's practical.
 
While I agree that cutting the length would help I would have to question the assumption that the initial length of a submission would really turn back agents and publishers. My first thought here is that these are people who clearly understand that even when they get the best of the best from someone new it will need work and part of that work is bringing it down to size. There has to be some other circumstances here, although I could almost buy that they might be reluctant to 'test' an unknown by asking them to bring the word count down. On the other hand someone new who wants to be published is going to do whatever it takes and I'm assuming these people already know that.

My guess is that if they saw something that was really good and was too long they would approach from just exactly that because they already know that readers will more likely test a new author if the book doesn't look like Atlas Shrugged. My next guess is if you get turned down there are other problems and while you fix those you could think about cutting the word count.

Splitting the book would only make sense if you have two separate story-lines and could end this one in a manner that would satisfy the reader when it takes another two or three years before someone picks up the other half. [I've no idea how quickly the sequel would come even if it were ready and the publisher was willing to buy.]

Tightening the book and shortening the length would be the best option to start with. Then as @HareBrain says if it's too long and can survive a cut that could be the next option.


Oddly though; I've recently read two debut fantasy novels that were superficially made to be 50% larger to bulk them up by reducing number of lines per page and add more space between lines.
Since neither has a word count my best guess is that one is 100k and the other is 150k.
The 100k is 370 pages and could as easily be as low as 225 to 270 pages
150 one is 520 pages and could as easily be 350 to 400 pages

They both are from small publishers.
 
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I think it's because the majority of long mss agents see are bloated, need editing and honing (because, like I did and most of us here, people sub too early.) Therefore, long mss are a red flag to overcome.
Long books do get agented but it's rare. Agents want the most marketable books out there and they want writers who are disciplined enough to write to the market (including market length) because that's what publishers want. To fail to achieve that makes it harder for the writer, and easy for the agent to fear it would be too much work to get ig to marketable state.
 
Yes and I am sure that that is quite true, but::

I think it's because the majority of long mss agents see are bloated, need editing and honing (because, like I did and most of us here, people sub too early.) Therefore, long mss are a red flag to overcome.
Long books do get agented but it's rare. Agents want the most marketable books out there and they want writers who are disciplined enough to write to the market (including market length) because that's what publishers want. To fail to achieve that makes it harder for the writer, and easy for the agent to fear it would be too much work to get ig to marketable state.

::Some seasoned writers I've corresponded with have never boasted of writing the most marketable books and have confessed that they rely on the editors to help them polish it to make it marketable.

In a way it reads like a catch 22 situation. A writer writes to the length that it reaches and the agents and publishers reject it because it's too long. While the writer has less desire to shorten it until he has sold it; the buyer has less incentive to buy it until it is shorter. Yes for the starving writer it might do to shorten it right away as long as he has a clear understanding of 'everything' that needs to be done to get the publishers attention, but for someone less hungry it is easier to tighten it to the most comfortable length and keep passing it around until it is taken and then rework it when the advance comes in and the publisher gives clear instructions about what needs to be worked to fit their market. While waiting move on to the next book that you will also begin to pass around.

My suspicion is that if you have long crappy writing, when you shorten and tighten without the market direction you've a better chance of having short crappy writing. You can only research your market to the point where you need to call in the big guns and they won't arrive until they are prepared to publish your work.

I suspect that if you move on to something else and get enough rejections you may have had enough practice on further work to dive back in and find some more places to tighten things on the old. There has to be more to your writing than just that one book.
 
I think it's pretty rare for a first book to be picked up straight away - in my understanding most are shelved. But I also think there is a misconception in terms of 'if I get picked up the editor will fix it all into a thing of beauty'. All my edits to date have been big-scale things - tighten this section, add a better secondary arc, close this plot hole - as opposed to someone coming along and fixing the mss for me. There is an expectation the writer has the skills to write.

Having said that, I needed an editor to give guidance on shaping (Teresa and Boneman for my second book) and only after their guidance did I get an agent/publisher.
 
Getting back to the OP- There are many opinions about word count for various genre and I think that after gathering them you can get a fair notion, but you are putting the cart before the horse if you don't have the piece finished. You need to finish it to the length it desires and then clean it up by tossing out your darlings being careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Then you need to tighten the prose removing unnecessary wordage. If then it hasn't met the required size limitation then beta it and listen and trim some more or if you are lucky and know someone who won't charge an arm and a leg (remember you are hungry) they might be able to mentor you on the work.

But first be certain you have a completed piece because up until then it only requires that you write.
 
Thanks for the advice.

I have this piece completed once at 130 k words but this is the rewrite which was supposed to compress it. Fail.

No doubt in my mind I can finish it, it's more should I be thinking at this stage of splitting it into two parts? That decision will affect my plot arcs considerably and if so I need to be planning it now. I need a good finale with the scope to continue on afterwards, which I think I can manage, but undecided if I should or not.

Perhaps I'll write the whole thing but leave myself the escape route of a potential mid-story finale as well if I can manage to do that. Hedging my bets, like.
 

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