How bad can someone be before redemption isn't possible?

I suppose I was responding to the question presuming that the character had acted in ways that were represented as something that would need to be redeemed, not something that may be widely interpreted as borderline to begin with.
 
But even the things that are "borderline" might be far over the line for some readers. I stopped reading the kind of romance that Hex describes, a long time ago, because I hated the male protagonists and could not get past the things they did.

I think evil female characters are harder to redeem in the eyes of readers, at least with readers of approximately my generation, because we still have this subconscious cultural conditioning that women, even more than men, shouldn't act that way.
 
But even the things that are "borderline" might be far over the line for some readers. I stopped reading the kind of romance that Hex describes, a long time ago, because I hated the male protagonists and could not get past the things they did.

I think evil female characters are harder to redeem in the eyes of readers, at least with readers of approximately my generation, because we still have this subconscious cultural conditioning that women, even more than men, shouldn't act that way.

Indeed, those lines vary from person to person. I just misinterpreted the spirit of the thread in how I read 'how bad can someone be'. A return from evil, a redemption narrative, is what I had in mind - not a continual evil that does not have a redemption narrative attached to it. The romance novels you are speaking of, which I do not recall ever having read one, seem to be about a character for which there is no attempted redemption because it is meant to be portrayed as somehow inherently redemptive through passion. That, to me, would be a different topic of discussion than evil actions intended to be fully or holistically redeemed later on in the story.

And I thoroughly agree with your second point.
 
Hi,

I'm sure there is a gender bias in this, but I'm not completely sure how it works. Because I think it's as much about beauty / sexiness as it is about societial role models for men and women. I mean Baltar from BSG was mentioned a little way back. I'm not sure he was redeemed, as he was simply shown to be half crazed and three quarters possessed by either the cylons or madness.

But lets look at another character - Six. Was she redeemed at any point? No. But is she hot? Yes. So don't we poor stupid males still want to sort of sweep the bad under the table and forgive her just a little. At the same time Dean Stockwell's cylon character we want to die horribly for all the horrible things he's done. Because he's male? Or because he's simply not hot?

Cheers, Greg.
 
This is about a redemption, it isn't the core of the story, just this characters arc.
 
Hi,

I'm sure there is a gender bias in this, but I'm not completely sure how it works. Because I think it's as much about beauty / sexiness as it is about societial role models for men and women. I mean Baltar from BSG was mentioned a little way back. I'm not sure he was redeemed, as he was simply shown to be half crazed and three quarters possessed by either the cylons or madness.

But lets look at another character - Six. Was she redeemed at any point? No. But is she hot? Yes. So don't we poor stupid males still want to sort of sweep the bad under the table and forgive her just a little. At the same time Dean Stockwell's cylon character we want to die horribly for all the horrible things he's done. Because he's male? Or because he's simply not hot?

Cheers, Greg.

A simple example of a bias is the one you have just mentioned: attractiveness and sensuality. A significant portion of Six's character was her utilization of evil through attraction - she perpetually seduced Baltar into doing what she wished. But since that attraction was such a central part of her character, there was little need to redeem her - and little discussion of it amongst fans. Her character was reduced to a black widow attraction so unworthy of redemption that the possibility was never even broached. The character depth and involvement was left for Baltar.
 
Hi,

My point is simply that we find it much easier to forgive a beautiful person. I think the classic example of this that occurs to me is She from Rider Haggard's novels. Ayeshe is described as a beautiful warrior / magical queen. She commits monstrous acts. Yet the protagonist is willing to forgive. To see the beauty in her. By contrast Frankensteins monster Adam is hideous and frightening. We will call him a monster and burn him alive simply for breathing. We certainly don't want to forgive him until the pathos rises sufficiently.

Cheers, Greg.
 
Odd, I always had a soft spot for the Frankenstein's monster - I mean it wasn't his fault his own creator practically turned on him the very second he was born. He wasn't intrinsically evil. True he eventually went on a murderous spree and became a monster, that I can't deny, but one could argue that to survive and live, society helped push him into being one. I read a lot more ambiguity into that story.
 
Hi,

I agree - but did the peasents with the pitchforks? Now if Adam had been built Eve and pretty he might have had an easier time.

Cheers, Greg.
 
Apologies if this has been raised in previous replies to your question. No one is irredeemable, but it may take an act of great sacrifice in order for there to be any kind of redemption. If you character is essentially a good person but is committing heinous acts under the control of an alien entity then her own conscience is unlikely to be able to deal with the consequences of her actions - especially if she is being made to kill against her will. If you introduce her to the reader while she is already under this alien control then she will be perceived as a nasty piece of work, and there's nothing wrong with that. Later, as you reveal that she isn't responsible for the atrocities she has committed then you paint her as a "tortured soul" and the reader may have some sympathy for her - especially if they begin to see how she is truly feeling. Depending on what she has done will dictate what she has to do in order to be redeemed, however, if the reader has come to understand her plight then they may be more forgiving when the act of redemption comes around. If that makes sense? Example - Darth Vader is introduced as probably the baddest bad-ass in the entire galaxy: force-choking people left and right and happily standing by while an entire planet is destroyed. However, we later learn that he is nothing more than a pawn under the control of a vastly more evil source (the Emperor) and, with an act of supreme effort, Vader rebels against that control and slays his master in order to save his son, knowing full well that doing so will mean his own death. He pays the ultimate price, but is redeemed.

Sorry if that's a load of waffle and of no help at all!
 

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