Robert E. Parkin
The Cyber Network
For example, my character in my story is 18. Is this too old? I've seen much younger, and not much older than 18 for it to be considered "Young Adult" so I was curious.
Any takers?
Any takers?
How old is "Too Old" in a Young Adult Novel?
- Thread starter Robert E. Parkin
- Start date
Not neccesarily, although 18 is pushing it (I have a yA book with a 17yo protagonist). YA isn't just defined by the age of the protagonist but also by their focus. So, what are the themes of the book? If it's around coming of age issues, then it's probably YA, if not, then no. What I would suggest is try not to straddle both - selling a crossover book is never easy. (Sobs quietly into her cuppa.)
Robert E. Parkin
The Cyber Network
in regards to the themes of my book I wouldn't say "coming of age" but more of an "eye opening experience". My protagonist is indeed exposed to a world, but more like exposed to the lies that have created a false one he has lived. He steadily learns the truth of the world he lives and begins to see the corruption and lies that propagate in it. He's rather closed, but begins to open up to those around him and slowly begins to see things in a new light as he dives deeper into the secrets that lurk in a world he thought he knew.
I'm not quite sure anymore where my book lies. I think its YA but I'm unsure it meets what most publishers would consider YA. My protagonist already has lived and experience many things that has lead him to be a withdrawn character unable to trust people. He is exposed to a female protagonist that shatters his world and intoxicates him with the need and desire to learn more about her. Several acting bodies all begin to converge on him as he becomes sucked into a tailspin of mayhem as he struggles to understand the depth to the lies he has been fed all his life. I don't know if these themes described sound YA anymore. I thought they did, but perhaps I've been misinformed.
I've always thought I was writing YA but upon coming on this forum I've become uncertain now. Is there a very strict criteria that professional publishers go by that classifies all YA? Do you just need to have certain themes? Do I need to have all these themes in my piece, or just some?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out now is if the work I spent the last three years writing is indeed YA.
Thoughts?
I'm not quite sure anymore where my book lies. I think its YA but I'm unsure it meets what most publishers would consider YA. My protagonist already has lived and experience many things that has lead him to be a withdrawn character unable to trust people. He is exposed to a female protagonist that shatters his world and intoxicates him with the need and desire to learn more about her. Several acting bodies all begin to converge on him as he becomes sucked into a tailspin of mayhem as he struggles to understand the depth to the lies he has been fed all his life. I don't know if these themes described sound YA anymore. I thought they did, but perhaps I've been misinformed.
I've always thought I was writing YA but upon coming on this forum I've become uncertain now. Is there a very strict criteria that professional publishers go by that classifies all YA? Do you just need to have certain themes? Do I need to have all these themes in my piece, or just some?
I guess what I'm trying to figure out now is if the work I spent the last three years writing is indeed YA.
Thoughts?
Is there a strict criteria? Not a checklist of sort, but there are things YA publishers look for in books which is hard to sum up - tone and language comes into it, the subject matter, the focus. In my case, I wrote a story about a 17 yo but included a shared adult pov (which isn't unheard of in YA) but which meant the YA storyline was diluted and I had to revisit it. But it's very wide - Jo Walton's Among Others doesn't easily fit into defined YA, for instance.
I think the best thing to do is get a feel for the market and look to do some wider research. Following something like #UKYA and their hourly forums would be a good place to start. Also, try to get some betas who have a good knowledge of YA. Without reading the whole thing it's very hard to know which is it. Unfortunately, if this is the book you have self-pubbed it can't go on critiques or i'd have suggested that as a good place to start in terms of tone. But the themes you have described could really be either YA or adult, depending on how you've approached it.
Once you have defined the market, when you're subbing be exact and try to set the tone right from the beginning.
I think the best thing to do is get a feel for the market and look to do some wider research. Following something like #UKYA and their hourly forums would be a good place to start. Also, try to get some betas who have a good knowledge of YA. Without reading the whole thing it's very hard to know which is it. Unfortunately, if this is the book you have self-pubbed it can't go on critiques or i'd have suggested that as a good place to start in terms of tone. But the themes you have described could really be either YA or adult, depending on how you've approached it.
Once you have defined the market, when you're subbing be exact and try to set the tone right from the beginning.
Robert E. Parkin
The Cyber Network
Okay. So, tone, language, subject matter, and focus. These elements define any story frankly. So, allow me to lay out I guess what my story has regarding these elements to the best of my ability. Then, from what others think here (plus any additional digging I do elsewhere) I will formulate exactly what I may need to consider in changes to the book, or subtle fixes if the story is indeed geared to YA. That said, here is a quick run down regarding the above elements mentioned.
1)Tone: fast, dark, emotional, intense, ominous
2)Language: I'm unsure in meaning by this element. Does this refer to the writing style? Is the work easy to read? I may be thinking something else, or getting it confused with other areas.
3)Subject Matter: corruption, deception, betrayal, love, trust
4)Focus: What it is to be human, overcoming adversary, learning to deal with change
I understand I need to do more digging from other sources, but I'm curious what others may think given their experience writing YA or from what they have learned from others that do write YA here.
I'm very grateful for any insight. Thank you.
1)Tone: fast, dark, emotional, intense, ominous
2)Language: I'm unsure in meaning by this element. Does this refer to the writing style? Is the work easy to read? I may be thinking something else, or getting it confused with other areas.
3)Subject Matter: corruption, deception, betrayal, love, trust
4)Focus: What it is to be human, overcoming adversary, learning to deal with change
I understand I need to do more digging from other sources, but I'm curious what others may think given their experience writing YA or from what they have learned from others that do write YA here.
I'm very grateful for any insight. Thank you.
There's nothing in those themes or the subject matter etc that suggest your story is not YA. There are other considerations, though. For example, YA sff is rarely longer than 100,000 words and tends to come in around 60-80,000.
I think if you read some of the YA out there, you'll be better placed to decide if that's what you're writing or not. An 18 year old protagonist could very easily be adult, too, and while I don't think darkness is a problem in YA, explicit sex (for example) may be more of an issue, depending on how you deal with it.
I think if you read some of the YA out there, you'll be better placed to decide if that's what you're writing or not. An 18 year old protagonist could very easily be adult, too, and while I don't think darkness is a problem in YA, explicit sex (for example) may be more of an issue, depending on how you deal with it.
Looking at that list, it's not feeling especially YA to me. Language is more than just a simplicity of reading (because not all YA is simplistic to read) but more that the words are conveyed in a young-sounding voice. The focus, in particular, doesn't feel YA to me, which would be more about finding who he is in the world.
There aren't many YA writers on the Chrons - myself, who crosses between YA and adult, Hex, Juliana and Mouse spring to mind - but other forums eg Absolute Write have more active YA threads. But balancing the needs of a YA audience against that of a genre audience is quite difficult and what you've described to me feels more like an adult genre work.
Edit, and I just read Hex's reply. I think we can't tell without seeing the work and it probably indicates how hard it is to be prescriptive. Having said that, Hex is the stronger YA reader and writer of the pair of us and I'd bow to her on this one.
There aren't many YA writers on the Chrons - myself, who crosses between YA and adult, Hex, Juliana and Mouse spring to mind - but other forums eg Absolute Write have more active YA threads. But balancing the needs of a YA audience against that of a genre audience is quite difficult and what you've described to me feels more like an adult genre work.
Edit, and I just read Hex's reply. I think we can't tell without seeing the work and it probably indicates how hard it is to be prescriptive. Having said that, Hex is the stronger YA reader and writer of the pair of us and I'd bow to her on this one.
er I wouldn't. I think you're right that we can't know.
e.g. what's "dark"? Chime (which is YA) is dark -- it's about a girl about to be burned as a witch trapped in a village surrounded by mysterious creatures. One person dies.
GRRM is "dark", and absolutely not YA.
The Forest of Hands and Teeth and The Hunger Games are both dark, full of death, and are YA.
It's not about simplicity, it's about tone and treatment of the theme (lovingly detailed entrails often make a book adult, not YA, for example). My suggestion would be to read in the area, or to think about what sort of books you can compare it to. Who's it like?
And I do write YA but I write the stuff I like to read, which is a small corner of what YA is :|
e.g. what's "dark"? Chime (which is YA) is dark -- it's about a girl about to be burned as a witch trapped in a village surrounded by mysterious creatures. One person dies.
GRRM is "dark", and absolutely not YA.
The Forest of Hands and Teeth and The Hunger Games are both dark, full of death, and are YA.
It's not about simplicity, it's about tone and treatment of the theme (lovingly detailed entrails often make a book adult, not YA, for example). My suggestion would be to read in the area, or to think about what sort of books you can compare it to. Who's it like?
And I do write YA but I write the stuff I like to read, which is a small corner of what YA is :|
Ray McCarthy
Sentient Marmite: The Truth may make you fret.
My main character is 24 to 27 in first two books, but most of the characters she interacts with are teenagers, she looks (and sometimes acts) more like 14 though. Starts in a class of younger teenagers who later realise / discover she is much older. But also she is the only human. So it's not exactly a normal situation.
In third book I will have her students and particular student (main POV) as the main characters as she will be 29 to 30!
I suspect from reading loads of YA books it depends on the story and who the character is relating to most. Coral Island, Ralph (the POV) is 15, Jack is 18 and Petterkin is 13.
I forget what age the main POV, Jim Hawkins is, but the only teenager in Treasure Island. Both of those are 19th Cent. YA enjoyed still today by young readers.
In third book I will have her students and particular student (main POV) as the main characters as she will be 29 to 30!
I suspect from reading loads of YA books it depends on the story and who the character is relating to most. Coral Island, Ralph (the POV) is 15, Jack is 18 and Petterkin is 13.
I forget what age the main POV, Jim Hawkins is, but the only teenager in Treasure Island. Both of those are 19th Cent. YA enjoyed still today by young readers.
Read some YA and then you'll know what YA's like. To see how dark you can go try The Toymaker by Jeremy de Quidt, for how clever you can go try Pullman's His Dark Materials, for theme maybe try Catherine Fisher's Corbenic. For age, go for The Death Collector by Justin Richards, or I think there's older characters in the Bartimaeus books by Jonathan Stroud. I believe the characters grow older in Garth Nix's Sabriel books too.
I don't know if it helps, but my character was 15, and my agent encouraged to increase her age to 16. Also, fabulous as Treasure Island is, the rules may be different now in traditional publishing from what they were in the 19thC, although self-publishing's likely to be more flexible.
Something that confuses me a lot about discussions like these: where's the line between MG and YA? Aren't His Dark Materials/ Bartimaeus really MG books? And Treasure Island?
Something that confuses me a lot about discussions like these: where's the line between MG and YA? Aren't His Dark Materials/ Bartimaeus really MG books? And Treasure Island?
Robert E. Parkin
The Cyber Network
I have read quite a bit of young adult in the past. Mainly the more popular ones like "Hunger Games" and "The Mortal Instruments". For one, all the books deal with a protagonist that enters a "world" where they have to overcome themselves/past/fear/etc as they learn more about it and themselves. There are normally several characters that help the protagonist along, and there is always the mention and slow build of relationships/love among these characters. The language used is often standard i suppose and is structured around the main protagonist (who is between the ages of 15-18 most of the time), and those they interact with, giving the sense that the it would be something other people in that age range could/will relate to.
Often times YA books deal with sex and in others cases none at all (or at the very least not writing out the scenes). I know my work builds a relationship of the two protagonists through the book, leading to a climax at the end in where they finally realize their true feelings. I've seen this done countless times before. However, there is no sex in my book at all. The relationship I portray is more of a "pure" one sorta speak.
Now, I did say my protagonist is 18. What I failed to mention that the female protagonist is "17-19". I say "17-19" because that is her physical age. She is an AI and in many ways, is an infant learning about the world at an accelerated rate. The more I dig, the more I look at my work and what the themes are, I can only see them used in other YA works I have read. My work has action, violence, intensity, death, but all the while builds a relationship between two "kids" as they slowly grow to learn more about themselves by learning more about the world and each other.
It all is made to sound complicated from what I have heard, but I guess it simply boils down to the fact that the people here need to read a sample of my work to be able to determine for sure. As I don't have the posts for such a thing yet, that will have to wait.
Until then, let the discussion continue.
Thanks as always.
Often times YA books deal with sex and in others cases none at all (or at the very least not writing out the scenes). I know my work builds a relationship of the two protagonists through the book, leading to a climax at the end in where they finally realize their true feelings. I've seen this done countless times before. However, there is no sex in my book at all. The relationship I portray is more of a "pure" one sorta speak.
Now, I did say my protagonist is 18. What I failed to mention that the female protagonist is "17-19". I say "17-19" because that is her physical age. She is an AI and in many ways, is an infant learning about the world at an accelerated rate. The more I dig, the more I look at my work and what the themes are, I can only see them used in other YA works I have read. My work has action, violence, intensity, death, but all the while builds a relationship between two "kids" as they slowly grow to learn more about themselves by learning more about the world and each other.
It all is made to sound complicated from what I have heard, but I guess it simply boils down to the fact that the people here need to read a sample of my work to be able to determine for sure. As I don't have the posts for such a thing yet, that will have to wait.
Until then, let the discussion continue.
Thanks as always.
Robert E. Parkin
The Cyber Network
A shame I can't use a work that has been published. Perhaps I will use a segment from my current WIP as its the sequel to the work I have mentioned here.
The reason we have the no-published-work rule is very simple -- Critiques isn't an advertising forum, it's there to help us improve our WIPs, to get them to a standard where they are fit to be published. If the work is already published, there's really no point in critiquing it and showing how it could be made better, since it's too late for that one. (I'm aware it's possible to change things under some self-pub'd books/ebooks, but we can't have a rule for published works which can be changed and ones which can't.)
So, yes, if you want help with your writing, put up something from a current WIP after you hit 30 posts. If you want someone to read the whole of your published book to see if it fits with YA or not, though, I'm afraid you'll have to wait for someone to volunteer.
Robert E. Parkin
The Cyber Network
I'm aware why the rule is in place. I never was questioning it. I'm just sad I didn't find this forum before I did.
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