Why wouldn't Aragorn claim the throne of Gondor?

[Brian G Turner]

I seem to recall that Aragorn had a claim for the throne of Gondor, but never claimed it until later in Lord of the Rings - but I can't recall why.

I think it may have been something to do with his pining for an elf-lady (Arwen??) but even still, am not sure how that would stop him. Or did Grimer Wormtongue have a part to play in preventing his claim as well?

Or did I misremember the entire issue?

 

[HareBrain]

I think it may have been something to do with his pining for an elf-lady (Arwen??)

I think that was the other way round -- he couldn't marry her until he was king of Gondor and Arnor.

As for not pressing his claim, I think it was basically that his claim wouldn't have been accepted (or only grudgingly, which would have been almost as bad) until he'd shown he had earned it, e.g. in battle.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

Is it not simply because he feared that his heart was as flawed as his ancestor Isildur's and would therefore make for a terrible king?

 

[Venusian Broon]

+1 on Chaos, I seem to remember he thought his family was 'cursed' and that he'd end up being like Isildur and flawed - therefore a terrible king. I think that is why he also lets Frodo go with the ring when the fellowship is broken up - because he fears he too will be swayed by the power of the ring and keep it for his own power, so this is partly an act of willpower, partly a way of removing temptation.

Perhaps this act starts him thinking - well the ring is now gone for good and bad and therefore perhaps I am ready to step up and become King finally. Possibly between the return of Gandulf and the reforging of Narsil and his acquisition of it, this all comes to fruition - because he needs to be Islidur's heir on the paths of the dead!

 

[HareBrain]

Ah, I assumed (wrongly) this thread was about the books rather than the films (didn't notice which forum it's in). The "flawed as Isildur" reason is in the latter but not the former.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Ah, I assumed (wrongly) this thread was about the books rather than the films (didn't notice which forum it's in). The "flawed as Isildur" reason is in the latter but not the former.

Actually its quite interesting to compare and contrast HB, so good that you pointed it out. I suspect that Aragorns motivations are moved around a bit (It's been a while since I've read the book I must admit) because they were determined to give Arwen more of a role.

 

[HareBrain]

If you look at some of the Tolkien forums (as I did this morning trying to prove you and Crawling Chaos wrong ) the reasons for book-Aragorn's hesitancy about pressing his claim is the subject of some debate, so I don't think Tolkien made it crystal-clear. I'm pretty sure there was mention of Elrond counselling him to bide his time till the moment was ripe, and I'm sure I remember Aragorn saying he couldn't just come out of the north like a ghost or a legend and hope to be accepted.

(Elrond was in control here, because Aragorn knew his claim would be strengthened if Narsil were reforged, and only Elrond could arrange that.)

 

[Venusian Broon]

Yes there's a lot of streamlining in the movies, just to make everything consistent and it does remove a lot of the ambiguity.

My memory of the book of the fellowship after they have left Lothlorien is how rudderless they had become. Aragorn seems not really to have a clue where they should go - in fact I got the impression he was leaning towards heading for Minas Tirith (I could be completely wrong, so please correct!)

In the movies, thinking about it - Aragorns refusal to take the ring is then coupled with him at the death of Boromir. So possibly, for the film, that's the moment when he makes his decision. When he arrives at Edoras he starts to act like a king I think.

 

[HareBrain]

My memory of the book of the fellowship after they have left Lothlorien is how rudderless they had become. Aragorn seems not really to have a clue where they should go - in fact I got the impression he was leaning towards heading for Minas Tirith (I could be completely wrong, so please correct!)

That's right I think. He was planning to rely on Gandalf's guidance, and that's no longer available. He only has a firm idea what to do once Merry and Pippin are captured by Saruman's orcs and he decides to go after them.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

My memory of the book of the fellowship after they have left Lothlorien is how rudderless they had become. Aragorn seems not really to have a clue where they should go - in fact I got the impression he was leaning towards heading for Minas Tirith.

If I remember correctly, that was more or less the plan when they left Rivendell, that the fellowship would travel together for a time, but when they reached a point where their paths would diverge Aragorn would go south with Boromir, and anyone else who still had the courage for it would continue toward Mordor with Frodo, under Gandalf's guidance. Gandalf's "death" made it hard to reconcile these two different plans.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Yes you're right Teresa, I think, I whipped out my copy of LotR to check! Near the start of the chapter 'Farewell to Lorien' Aragorn explicitly states he was always intending to go with Boromir to help Gondor with his sword. And that he would have taken Frodo and the ring with him - but he knows full well that Frodo was very unlikely to want to do this and he couldn't stand in Frodo's way either. Therefore he didn't really know what to do with such a split coming. (Presumably if Gandalf had been there, the wizard possibly would have gone off with Frodo to aid him and Aragorn could, with a clearer conscious, help Boromir?)

Still it's an odd decision to let two Frodo and Sam go off alone with the ring, because if it is captured that means they lose no matter what (or at least the enemy has a massive extra advantage I suppose). But Aragorn is charged by Boromir as he dies to defend Minas Tirath - which he accepts and then he states that it is also his heart's desire to return to the city. So when Legolas and Gimli arrive and ask 'Well what do we do now' Aragorn doesn't tell them Boromir's final words but picks the course that he knows will led him towards Miras Tirith by rescuing Merry and Pippen. Possible guilty conscience at keeping this secret?

Crivens, I should get back to some work now!

 

[The Judge]

In the book Aragorn doesn't explicitly accept Boromir's charge, he simply says "Minas Tirth shall not fall!" which I read as being no more than comforting a dying man, since he can't possibly tell for sure if MT will fall or not even if he goes there.

I don't read his silence as being guilty conscience, because he's berating himself all over for being late and not making the right choices, I think he sees it as simply not relevant -- and he can't be sure that rescuing Merry and Pippin will lead him to MT anyway. It isn't that he's left Sam and Frodo to go off on their own, since he would have gone with them, whatever Frodo's choice, but he recognises the chance of finding them is remote, whereas they have a clear trail to find the Orcs and at least avenge the hobbits' deaths if not rescue them. And when he reaches his decision it's "My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part."

 

[Venusian Broon]

In the book Aragorn doesn't explicitly accept Boromir's charge, he simply says "Minas Tirth shall not fall!" which I read as being no more than comforting a dying man, since he can't possibly tell for sure if MT will fall or not even if he goes there.

TJ - you probably know the text a lot better than me, I've only read the book twice .

I took it from when he explicitly thinks just after Boromir's death: "What shall I do now? Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it." (my italics of course) So he hasn't sworn an oath yes, but it feels like his statement was more than a white lie to Boromir just to make him feel better when he was dying.

I don't read his silence as being guilty conscience, because he's berating himself all over for being late and not making the right choices, I think he sees it as simply not relevant -- and he can't be sure that rescuing Merry and Pippin will lead him to MT anyway. It isn't that he's left Sam and Frodo to go off on their own, since he would have gone with them, whatever Frodo's choice, but he recognises the chance of finding them is remote, whereas they have a clear trail to find the Orcs and at least avenge the hobbits' deaths if not rescue them. And when he reaches his decision it's "My heart speaks clearly at last: the fate of the Bearer is in my hands no longer. The Company has played its part."

The reason I originally said guilty conscience is that he has been struggling himself with the idea that he should accompany Frodo all the way to Mordor, against going to Minas Tirith. I thought he can't say: let's go and rescue Merry and Pippen from torture and death (fair enough a valid reason!), and then we go down to Minas Tirith because 'my heart desires it' (Where else were they going to go in the long term if they were not going to accompany the ring bearer to Mordor?) That looks like he's abandoning the ring bearer for personal reasons. Thus the text says he keeps the last words of Boromir secret for a long time....But thinking about it now, Aragorn figured he was heading to MT anyway and no doubt felt that his best role in defeating Sauron was to stop the fall of MT, so it was justified, despite the fact that Frodo and Sam are now in a lot of danger. And possibly the secret that the text is alluding to was the fact that Boromir tried to take the ring.

In fact Frodo also states he would trust Strider on the way to Mordor (different from the movie), but knows that Aragorn was needed at Minas Tirith, so he knows he can't ask him to follow.


(I disagree that that he couldn't find Frodo again - yes hobbits are very stealthy - but he's a ranger and he's got Legolas. Plus he knows more or less which direction they are heading. He doesn't make the argument that he won't be able to find them when coming out with his decision.)

 

[Boaz]

Brian, If you don't mind I'll give you a bit of history of Tolkien's Aragorn. The following dates are from the calendar used by the Noldor (Elrond and Galadriel) and the Dunedain (Aragorn and the Gondorians). The following dates, quotes, and facts are from the Third Age of Middle-earth and can be found in appendices of The Return of the King. I think all of the following information is pertinent to who Elrond, Aragorn and Arwen are in the story... and I'll throw in a few dates to let you know how Aragorn's life fits into the overall timeline.

2 - Isildur leaves Gondor in the hands of Meneldil, his brother's son, and heads back north to Arnor. He is slain en route along with his three eldest sons. As the elder brother, Isildur considered himself the High King of the Dunedain (the Arnorians and Gondorians).

3 - The shards of Narsil, Elendil's sword that Isildur used to cut the Ring off Sauron's finger, are delivered to Elrond in Rivendell.

10 - Valandil, Isildur's youngest and only surviving son, comes of age and is proclaimed King of Arnor. In the interim, he was called Isildur's heir beginning a tradtional title.

241 - Arwen born.

861 - Feuding brothers divide Arnor into three realms. Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur. The royal line quickly fails in Rhudaur. Border skirmishes and open war never really ceases between these rival states.

c. 1000 - Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and two more Istari (Wizards) first appear in Middle-earth.

1050 - Hobbits begin to migrate into Arnor.

c. 1300 - The leader of the Nazgul (Ringwraiths), the Witch-king, takes up residence near Rhudaur. He establishes the realm of Angmar. Rhudaur quickly succumbs to his influence and becomes a client state. Arthedain and Cardolan cease hostilities and ally themselves against Angmar and Rhudaur.

1409 - Cardolan destroyed.

1432-1447 - Gondorian Civil War.

1601 - Hobbits begin to settle, in large numbers, in an area of Arnor that will become known as The Shire.

1940 - King Arvedui of Arthedain weds Firiel, the daughter of King Ondoher of Gondor.

1944 - King Ondoher of Gondor dies in battle. As his son in law and as the only surviving heir of Isildur (and by extension Elendil), King Arvedui of Arthedain claims the throne of Gondor. General Earnil rallies the Gondorians and wins two overwhelming victories against invaders from the south and east.

1945 - The nobility of Gondor give the crown to Earnil.

1974 - The Witch-king defeats Arvedui and destroys Arthedain.

1975 - The Gondorians (with some help from Elrond's people), under the command of Earnur (Earnil's son), defeat the forces of the Witch-king. The Witch-king abandons Angmar with his mission accomplished. Arvedui drowns in exile.

1976 - Aranarth, son of Arvedui, calls himself Chieftain of the Dunedain and Isildur's heir. His followers are sheltered by Elrond. They range across the north, protecting their former lands from evil.

1980-1981 - The Dwarves of Khazad-dum accidentally awaken a Balrog. It slays two of their kings and they flee. Their kingdom is subsequently infiltrated by orcs and is renamed Moria.

1999 - The Dwarven refugees found a new kingdom at Erebor, the Lonely Mountain.

2002 - Minas Ithil falls to the Witch-king. It becomes the dwelling place for the Nazgul. It is renamed Minas Morgul. (This is the place where Frodo was captured and tortured.)

2043 - Earnur succeeds his father as King of Gondor. The Witch-king sends a message to Earnur claiming cowardice at their previous meeting.

2050 - The Witch-king again invites Earnur to single combat. Earnur accepts, rides forth, and is never seen again. Since Earnur never married, his steward Mardil rules in his name.

c. 2460 - Deagol finds the Ring and is murdered by Smeagol.

2510 - Gondor's norther province is overrun by Easterlings. Easterlings are defeated by Northmen commanded by Eorl. Cirion, Steward of Gondor, gifts the province to Eorl. Eorl calls himself king and names the land Rohan.

c. 2670 - Hobbit's first plant pipe-weed.

2770 - Smaug destroys Erebor and Dale (the town on the lake).

2890 - Bilbo born.

2930 - Denethor born.

2931 - Aragorn, sixteenth in direct descent from Arvedui, born.

2933 - Aragorn's dies. Aragorn is given to Elrond. Elrond raises him as his own son.

2939 - Saruman's spies tell him Sauron's spies are searching the location of Isildur's death. Saruman does not tell Elrond, Galadriel, or Gandalf, aka the White Council, because he wants the Ring for himself.

2941 - Bilbo's adventure. Bard kills Smaug. Battle of the Five Armies. Erebor is re-established.

2944 - Bard re-establishes the Kingdom of Dale.

2948 - Theoden born.

2951 - Sauron openly declares himself as Lord of Mordor. Elrond tells Aragorn of his ancestry and gives him the heirlooms of his house, including the shards of Narsil. Arwen, who had stayed with her grandmother (Galadriel) for many years, returns to Rivendell and meets Aragorn for the first time. Aragorn goes out ranging.

2956 - Aragorn and Gandalf meet for the first time.

2957-2980. Aragorn, using the name Thorongil, spends time serving King Thengel of Rohan (Theoden's father) and then Ecthelion (father of Boromir and Faramir), Steward of Gondor. During Aragorn's time in Gondor, he and Denthor were the two leading captains. Denethor most likely figured out who Aragorn really was.

2968 - Frodo born.

2978 - Boromir born.

2980 - The Corsairs of Umbar take control of the seas from Gondor. Aragorn with a small flotilla enters their harbor at night and burns their fleet. He leaves Gondor for Lothlorien. There he meets Arwen for the second time and they get engaged. Elrond tells Aragorn, "My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it had been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undomiel shall not diminish her life's grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of hoy for a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending."

2982 - Meriadoc (Merry) born.

2983 - Faramir born. Samwise born.

2984 - Denethor becomes Steward of Gondor.

2989 - Balin tries to re-establish Khazad-dum (Moria).

2990 - Peregrin (Pippin) born.

2991 - Eomer born.

2995 - Eowyn born.

c. 3000 - Saruman uses the palantir (the seeing stone) of Orthanc, but is caught by Sauron using the palantir taken from Minas Morgul. Saruman is forced to betray the White Council.

3001 - Bilbo's farewell party.

3018 - The Nazgul enter the Shire. Frodo flees. Council of Elrond.

3019 - Battle of Helm's Deep. Destruction of Isengard. Battle of Pelennor Fields. Destruction of Sauron and the One Ring. Aragorn becomes King of Gondor.

3021 - Bilbo turns 131. Bilbo, Frodo, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel sail away. This is the last year of the Third Age.

1 - Beginning of the Fourth Age.

6 - Sam elected Mayor of the Shire. Aragorn formally incorporates the Shire a part of his re-established Kingdom of Arnor and declares it illegal for any Man to enter the Shire without an invitaion.

11 - Merry becomes Master of Buckland. He is sent lavish gifts from Eomer and Eowyn.

15 - Aragorn visits the Shire.

13 - Pippin becomes Thain of the Shire. Sam is re-elected. Aragorn formally makes the Mayor, the Master, and the Thain Counsellors of Arnor.

48 - Sam wife dies and he retires after serving seven terms. He is last seen riding west and tradition holds that he sailed over the sea.

63 - Merry and Pippin retire. They journey to Rohan and see Eomer before he dies. They then journey to Gondor and live there for a few years until their deaths.

120 - Aragorn laid down and relenquished his life. He is succeeded by his son, Eldarion. He and Arwen also had at least two daughters.

Let me explain a bit about Elrond... from the movie, you get the idea that he hates Men.

Elrond's lineage includes Elves, Men, and an Angel. His bloodline was so convoluted that the Angels gave a choice to him and his twin brother. They could choose to be human or elf. Elrond's brother, Elros, chose to be human. He became the first King of Numenor. When Numenor finally failed after three thousand years, Elendil, the most noble of the Numenoreans left, established two kingdoms in Middle-earth... Arnor and Gondor.

Elrond chose to be an elf. His choice was passed on to his children... as long as he remained in Middle-earth. When he left, his children either had to choose elven and leave with him or stay and be human. All three chose to stay.

Time and time again in the six thousand years since his choice, Elrond assisted the descendants of his brother. By the time Aragorn was born, Elrond had been sheltering Elros' family for a thousand years... talk about relatives that out stay their welcome. He went above and beyond to preserve the heirs of Isildur for three thousand years. He personally adopted Aragorn and raised him as his own son.

Elrond was the product of the greatest heroes of both Elves and Men of the First Age. His ancestors were Melian (an Angel), Thingol (High King of the Teleri, i.e. one of the three branches of the Elves), Luthien (most beloved of Elves), Turgon (High King of the Noldor, another branch of Elves), Idril (a wise princess), and also of Beor, Barahir, Haldad, Marach, Hador, Galdor, Huor, and Tuor... all mighty heroes of the Edain (Men, the forerunners of the Numenoreans).

Elrond could have claimed to the High King of the Noldor or the High King of the Teleri... according to his lineage, he could claim to be King of all the Elves of Middle-earth. He could also claim to be the High King of all three houses of the Edain (Men). But Elrond chose simply to be called the Master of Imladris (Rivendell).

And in the movies, Elrond has to be conviced of the worthiness of both Aragorn and all descendants of Numenor.

 

[JoanDrake]

Thank you, the book and the movie could have both used that kind of guide. In fact, it wouldn't have hurt if Middle Earth had a University or two.

 

[Boaz]

Oops...

2933 should read Aragorn's father dies.

2980 should have joy instead of hoy.

And if you've read The Silmarillion (I consider it canon, call me a heretic), then you know the story of Beren and Luthien. Beren was the heir of the First House of the Edain (Men who were allied with the Elves against Morgoth, Sauron's master). Beren's family was killed and their lands overrun. But he stayed and fought with a small company in a guerilla war. After all his companions died, Beren stayed for another year or so. He finally fled and found himself in the forest realm of Thingol, High King of the Teleri (Wood Elves and Coastal Elves). Wounded in body and much more so in spirit, he beheld Luthien the daughter of Thingol and Melian (a Maia, an Angel of Tolkien's universe). They fell in love. But Thingol was the eldest, wisest, most regal, and haughtiest of the Elven kings of the First Age, and he refused to accept their engagement. He felt that Men were even worse than Dwarves... no better than Orcs. But at Luthien's insistence, he gave Beren permission if Beren could give him a Silmaril. The three Silmarils were jewels fashioned by Feanor (greatest elven smith) from the light of the Two Trees (before the Sun and Moon and Stars these trees were the only source of light in the world) of Valinor (the continent west of Middle-earth where the Angels lived). Years before, in a surprise attack, Ungoliant killed the Trees and Morgoth stole the Silmarils. So all Beren had to do was to sneak through Thangorodrim (Morgoth's mountain walls) and assail Morgoth's stronghold of Angband. On his way, he was captured by Sauron... Beren was rescued by Luthien and the greatest hound to live, Huan. Under Luthien's magic, they infiltrated Angband. Luthien bewitched Morgoth and Beren stole a Silmaril. During their flight, Carcharoth, greatest of the Wolves, bit off Beren's hand bearing the jewel. Beren and Luthien made it back to Thingol who demanded the Silmaril. When Beren still claimed that the jewel was in his hand and showed Thingol his stump, Thingol's heart softened and he permitted the lovers to marry. The holy jewel burned away at the wolf's stomach and drove him mad. He somehow entered the forest and Beren, Thingol, Huan, and Thingol's nobles went out to hunt the beast. The wolf was slain, but so were Huan and Beren. Upon this news, Luthien died. Elves spirits do not leave the world as do the spirits of Men. They stay in the Halls of Mandos (Valhalla) until they are reborn among the Elves. Well, Luthien sang such a song of haunting beauty, melancholy, and love that Mandos sent her back... along with Beren. They lived second lives as mortals... living long enough to have a child, Dior, who became king after Thingol. Dior's daughter was Elwing... Elrond's mother.

Aragorn considered himself more like Beren than Isildur. In the movie, Aragorn lives with doubts about how he'd handle the responsibility that Isildur shouldered.

Like Beren, Aragorn fought a ranger's war... a guerilla war for years in the Wild... sometimes alone. Like Beren, his family was destroyed and his lands overrun. Like Beren, he met a beautiful Elven princess in the woods. Like Beren, he declared his love for an immortal elf. Like Beren, the elven maid's father demanded an impossible bride price... one that might take decades to achieve, if ever. Like Beren served Finrod, Aragorn served Thengel and Ecthelion. Like Beren, Aragorn was aided by faithful friends.

Unlike Isildur, Aragorn knew of the temptation of the Ring long before he was ever near it. Unlike Isildur, he was humble. Unlike Isildur, he trusted in the wisdom of Elrond.

 

[Cat's Cradle]

Well done on these posts, Boaz! They're wonderful to read! CC

 

[Brian G Turner]

Cheers, Boaz - much appreciated for the in-depth explaination.

I have to admit, I'm somewhat flabbergasted that Aragorn is claimed to be the heir of someone nearly 3000 years dead - that's like someone turning up claiming the throne of Greece because they can trace an ancestry from King Agememnon! Even more so as the lineage above seems to suggest no direct ancestry, but instead a potential ancestry via marriage - not a bloodline.

Is Aragorn's claim really so shaky, or am I interpreting it too much in mortal terms, especially considering the longevity of the Elves?

 

[thaddeus6th]

The immortality of elves does make things a bit different, I think.

I wrote a semi-related post a couple of months ago about how long a state can survive (partly history, partly about the then forthcoming Scottish referendum, and slightly about very long timescales in fantasyland):
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/how-long-can-state-survive.html

Obviously in a high fantasy Middle Earth scenario, with immortal elves and so on, things are a bit different.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

No, Brian, Aragorn is in the direct line from Isildur. But, as you say, it was a long time ago, and pretty much explains why he couldn't just knock on the door and say, "Oh, by the way, that unoccupied throne up there really belongs to me."

Unlike Isildur, Aragorn knew of the temptation of the Ring long before he was ever near it. Unlike Isildur, he was humble. Unlike Isildur, he trusted in the wisdom of Elrond.

And unlike Isildur he wasn't wrought up after a battle and angry because his father and brother had died. Isildur took the ring as weregild, which was never an issue for Aragorn. Isildur wasn't raised by Elrond and accustomed from childhood to take his advice.

If one reads all of Isildur's story (as I know you have done, Boaz, but not everyone here has) it is plain that he was a great hero who would have been remembered in story and song down through the ages for all his admirable qualities, his courage and great deeds ... except that he made that one (terrible) mistake, which tainted his name forever.