Boaz
Happy Easter!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Messages
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WARNING! I'm dropping major spoilers from A Game of Thrones, A Clash of Kings, A Storm of Swords, A Feast for Crows, and A Dance with Dragons. If you have not read all first five books in the series A Song of Ice and Fire, then turn away.
Some of the plots of ASOIAF have been/are begun by, influenced by, and/or dependent upon deceased characters. I don't want to discuss irrelevant characters like King Robert's father, Jory or Lommy. Their passings were sad, but they have not impacted the story after their deaths. I also want to avoid characters who have died during the narrative... because it's pretty easy to see the effects of Eddard, Robb, and especially Catelyn on the current and remaining story. I want to discuss Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Azor Ahai... and anyone else who's actions are driving the story (or at least driving crackpot theories) long after their death.
Lyanna:
Love her, hate her, admire her, pity her... Her disappearance propelled the events that started Robert's Rebellion. How many lives were ended, begun, or irrevocably changed by her disappearance? Robb was born. Jon was born. Dany was born. Jaime was labeled. Alliser Thorne was sent to the Wall. Rickard, Brandon, Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Arthur were killed. Rhaella died. Ashara committed suicide. Viserys and Dany were exiled. Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully. Eddard wedded Catelyn. Robert married Cersei. Barristan became Robert's friend.
We don't know the truth behind her life. We only know Robert's opinion, a bit of Eddard's dreams, a few remarks by Eddard, and a bit of Meera's story. Why did she disappear? Was she abducted? Did she elope? Was she rescued?
Still, Jon wants a mother, Arya wants a role model, and I want to know what is the song of Ice and Fire...
Rhaegar:
Tragic hero or villain? The official version of Robert's regime states that Rhaegar kidnapped, raped, raped, raped, raped, ad nauseum.... Lyanna. And yet, no one who actually knew Rhaegar thinks of him as a villain. Connington and BFS both vouch for his character. Jaime even vouches for Rhaegar, but only after we learn the truth behind his regicide.
Robert still dreamed of killing him and Cersei wished she'd married him.... BFS and Meera told stories of him.... Jaime remembered him fondly.... Dany had a vision of him.... Aemon still wanted to correspond with him.... all at least fifteen years after his death.
It seems that Rhaegar's son and his best friend are still alive and wanting revenge.
Aerys II:
It always came back to Aerys. Here's a list of important characters whose lives intersected directly and dramatically with the Mad King... Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Tywin, Jaime, Barristan, Brandon, and although I do not have definitive proof, I believe Lyanna.
Heading into The Winds of Winter, the Mad King's actions directly affect...
...Aegon's invasion.
...Connington's motivation.
...Dany's birthright.
...Barristan's allegiance.
...the public alignment of House Tyrell.
and I think...
...the parentage and inheritance of Cersei, Jaime, Myrcella, Tommen, Tyrion, and Jon.
...House Tyrell's secret backdoor negotiations with both Aegon and Dany.
And indirectly, the Mad King still affects...
...Doran Martell's policies.
...the Targaryen claim, "The Dragon has three heads."
...the Targaryen prophecy of The Prince that was Promised.
And I don't know if he directly affects, indirectly affects, or has no affect at all upon the machinations of Middlefinger and the Spider. But my crackpot theories on Varys (Vaerys) and Baelish (son of Baelor) being distantly related Targaryens cannot totally be discounted.
I wish I were smart enough to have completed my Grand Unified Theory of Everything...
...Hey, Boaz. I wish you'd shut up about it! Sheesh. Let it go already...
...but there was the quote that always nagged at me. It's from Jaime's second chapter in ASOS.
In my copy (Bantam Spectra mass market, 2003), the line "It always came back to Aerys." is not in bold... and neither is it in italics. If it was italicized, then it's just Jaime's thought. But since it it not, then it is GRRM's information to us.
Really, Boaz, do you know what you've done?
Yes, I know I've grabbed on six words out of 1.77 million in the series. [Reference Link] And I tried to tie it all together.
Azor Ahai:
This guy lived at least three thousand years before Melisandre... mayhaps more like eight thousand. And she is looking for his return...
Yes, the Game of Thrones continues, but if they don't stop The Other and.... the Others... and the zombie horde... then they'll all die.
If Azor Ahai was this great legendary hero who saved the World with his flaming sword, then why don't the people of Westeros know of him? Why don't they have any inkling of Azor Ahai? For all we know Azor Ahai could be Asshaian (Asshese? Asshaish?) or Valyrian for... wait for it... Brandon the Builder... or Brandon Stark.
What?!?! Boaz, you just made that up!!! Nobody's ever posted that before!
Okay, I admit... I just made that up for shock effect.
But you tell me why don't the First Men, the Andals, the Rhoynish, the Septons, the Maesters, the Pyromancers, or the Targaryens (okay, TPTWP could be a match, but that's the only one I see) seem to have any legend, fable, myth, or mention of Azor Ahai? I mean Melisandre came to Westeros specifically to find Azor Ahai reborn and to assist him to defeat The Other north of the Wall, in Westeros, that was specifically built to keep the Others out... and nobody know what she's talking about?
Look, either Azor Ahai's name was translated or Melisandre is lying through her teeth. Personally, I'm in favor of the latter... but the former opens up so manycrackpot theories... I mean, possibilities.
Stannis thinks he is AAR. He's bought it hook, line, and sinker. And now he may be dead.
Other candidates proposed by posters include... Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Jaime, Sam, Davos, and Melisandre herself. Dany and Jon seem most likely...
But everyone directly connected to Stannis, Mance, and Castle Black have had their lives put into upheaval because of this prophecy.
Aegon the Conqueror:
His claim by right of conquest still haunts every noble in Westeros three hundred years after the Field of Fire. For thousands of years, there had been hundreds, if not thousands, of petty kingdoms. At some point, those hundred developed into dozens and then into seven. Some houses still recall their royal blood of thousands of years ago... and some dream of a return to just three hundred years ago... and some want it all.
Aegon's legacies are absolute power and a still living bloodline.
Brandon the Builder:
During the Age of Heroes, Brandon (no last name, but the Starks claim him as their progenitor) built Winterfell... no small accomplishment... and THE WALL!!!
Some posters think there's a dragon under Winterfell. Mayhaps it was already let out when Ramsay burned it.
Some posters think there's a dragon in the Wall... but that one of the Targaryens left it there.
If he built the Wall, then he probably established the Night's Watch. He probably knew who The Other is or what he can do. Some people think he may have even have negotiated the peace with the Others.
Elia:
Her murder, by Gregor Clegane, drove her twin brother to his death. Now, her nieces all foment rebellion and murder while her elder brother is still trying to get revenge in his own way... i.e. overthrowing the entire goverment!
Oh... and there's this little matter of her dead son coming back to invade the realm.
Others of less import....
Ashara Dayne. She was close to Elia. She was fond of Eddard. She was AFD's brother. What does she know of baby Aegon, Jon, and Lyanna's stay at the Tower of Joy? She knew something. Is she really dead?
Brandon Stark. He caused Baelish's hatred of Starks. He caused Lady Dustin's hatred of Starks. He caused the Mad King's hatred of Starks. It seems he caused a lot of people to hate the Starks. And now Sansa and Rickon will pay the remaining bill that Bran, Arya, Eddard, Catelyn, and Robb left due.
The Night's King. He claimed the Night Fort as his own. He married a woman whose description matches an Other. It is said he gave her his soul. It is rumored his name was Brandon Stark.
Well, I guess that's all I have for now. I'd like you to post ways that the deceased are still creating motivations for the living.
Some of the plots of ASOIAF have been/are begun by, influenced by, and/or dependent upon deceased characters. I don't want to discuss irrelevant characters like King Robert's father, Jory or Lommy. Their passings were sad, but they have not impacted the story after their deaths. I also want to avoid characters who have died during the narrative... because it's pretty easy to see the effects of Eddard, Robb, and especially Catelyn on the current and remaining story. I want to discuss Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Azor Ahai... and anyone else who's actions are driving the story (or at least driving crackpot theories) long after their death.
Lyanna:
Love her, hate her, admire her, pity her... Her disappearance propelled the events that started Robert's Rebellion. How many lives were ended, begun, or irrevocably changed by her disappearance? Robb was born. Jon was born. Dany was born. Jaime was labeled. Alliser Thorne was sent to the Wall. Rickard, Brandon, Rhaegar, Elia, Rhaenys, Aegon, and Arthur were killed. Rhaella died. Ashara committed suicide. Viserys and Dany were exiled. Jon Arryn married Lysa Tully. Eddard wedded Catelyn. Robert married Cersei. Barristan became Robert's friend.
We don't know the truth behind her life. We only know Robert's opinion, a bit of Eddard's dreams, a few remarks by Eddard, and a bit of Meera's story. Why did she disappear? Was she abducted? Did she elope? Was she rescued?
Still, Jon wants a mother, Arya wants a role model, and I want to know what is the song of Ice and Fire...
Rhaegar:
Tragic hero or villain? The official version of Robert's regime states that Rhaegar kidnapped, raped, raped, raped, raped, ad nauseum.... Lyanna. And yet, no one who actually knew Rhaegar thinks of him as a villain. Connington and BFS both vouch for his character. Jaime even vouches for Rhaegar, but only after we learn the truth behind his regicide.
Robert still dreamed of killing him and Cersei wished she'd married him.... BFS and Meera told stories of him.... Jaime remembered him fondly.... Dany had a vision of him.... Aemon still wanted to correspond with him.... all at least fifteen years after his death.
It seems that Rhaegar's son and his best friend are still alive and wanting revenge.
Aerys II:
It always came back to Aerys. Here's a list of important characters whose lives intersected directly and dramatically with the Mad King... Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys, Tywin, Jaime, Barristan, Brandon, and although I do not have definitive proof, I believe Lyanna.
Heading into The Winds of Winter, the Mad King's actions directly affect...
...Aegon's invasion.
...Connington's motivation.
...Dany's birthright.
...Barristan's allegiance.
...the public alignment of House Tyrell.
and I think...
...the parentage and inheritance of Cersei, Jaime, Myrcella, Tommen, Tyrion, and Jon.
...House Tyrell's secret backdoor negotiations with both Aegon and Dany.
And indirectly, the Mad King still affects...
...Doran Martell's policies.
...the Targaryen claim, "The Dragon has three heads."
...the Targaryen prophecy of The Prince that was Promised.
And I don't know if he directly affects, indirectly affects, or has no affect at all upon the machinations of Middlefinger and the Spider. But my crackpot theories on Varys (Vaerys) and Baelish (son of Baelor) being distantly related Targaryens cannot totally be discounted.
I wish I were smart enough to have completed my Grand Unified Theory of Everything...
...Hey, Boaz. I wish you'd shut up about it! Sheesh. Let it go already...
...but there was the quote that always nagged at me. It's from Jaime's second chapter in ASOS.
In my copy (Bantam Spectra mass market, 2003), the line "It always came back to Aerys." is not in bold... and neither is it in italics. If it was italicized, then it's just Jaime's thought. But since it it not, then it is GRRM's information to us.
Really, Boaz, do you know what you've done?
Yes, I know I've grabbed on six words out of 1.77 million in the series. [Reference Link] And I tried to tie it all together.
Azor Ahai:
This guy lived at least three thousand years before Melisandre... mayhaps more like eight thousand. And she is looking for his return...
Yes, the Game of Thrones continues, but if they don't stop The Other and.... the Others... and the zombie horde... then they'll all die.
If Azor Ahai was this great legendary hero who saved the World with his flaming sword, then why don't the people of Westeros know of him? Why don't they have any inkling of Azor Ahai? For all we know Azor Ahai could be Asshaian (Asshese? Asshaish?) or Valyrian for... wait for it... Brandon the Builder... or Brandon Stark.
What?!?! Boaz, you just made that up!!! Nobody's ever posted that before!
Okay, I admit... I just made that up for shock effect.
But you tell me why don't the First Men, the Andals, the Rhoynish, the Septons, the Maesters, the Pyromancers, or the Targaryens (okay, TPTWP could be a match, but that's the only one I see) seem to have any legend, fable, myth, or mention of Azor Ahai? I mean Melisandre came to Westeros specifically to find Azor Ahai reborn and to assist him to defeat The Other north of the Wall, in Westeros, that was specifically built to keep the Others out... and nobody know what she's talking about?
Look, either Azor Ahai's name was translated or Melisandre is lying through her teeth. Personally, I'm in favor of the latter... but the former opens up so many
Stannis thinks he is AAR. He's bought it hook, line, and sinker. And now he may be dead.
Other candidates proposed by posters include... Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Jaime, Sam, Davos, and Melisandre herself. Dany and Jon seem most likely...
But everyone directly connected to Stannis, Mance, and Castle Black have had their lives put into upheaval because of this prophecy.
Aegon the Conqueror:
His claim by right of conquest still haunts every noble in Westeros three hundred years after the Field of Fire. For thousands of years, there had been hundreds, if not thousands, of petty kingdoms. At some point, those hundred developed into dozens and then into seven. Some houses still recall their royal blood of thousands of years ago... and some dream of a return to just three hundred years ago... and some want it all.
Aegon's legacies are absolute power and a still living bloodline.
Brandon the Builder:
During the Age of Heroes, Brandon (no last name, but the Starks claim him as their progenitor) built Winterfell... no small accomplishment... and THE WALL!!!
Some posters think there's a dragon under Winterfell. Mayhaps it was already let out when Ramsay burned it.
Some posters think there's a dragon in the Wall... but that one of the Targaryens left it there.
If he built the Wall, then he probably established the Night's Watch. He probably knew who The Other is or what he can do. Some people think he may have even have negotiated the peace with the Others.
Elia:
Her murder, by Gregor Clegane, drove her twin brother to his death. Now, her nieces all foment rebellion and murder while her elder brother is still trying to get revenge in his own way... i.e. overthrowing the entire goverment!
Oh... and there's this little matter of her dead son coming back to invade the realm.
Others of less import....
Ashara Dayne. She was close to Elia. She was fond of Eddard. She was AFD's brother. What does she know of baby Aegon, Jon, and Lyanna's stay at the Tower of Joy? She knew something. Is she really dead?
Brandon Stark. He caused Baelish's hatred of Starks. He caused Lady Dustin's hatred of Starks. He caused the Mad King's hatred of Starks. It seems he caused a lot of people to hate the Starks. And now Sansa and Rickon will pay the remaining bill that Bran, Arya, Eddard, Catelyn, and Robb left due.
The Night's King. He claimed the Night Fort as his own. He married a woman whose description matches an Other. It is said he gave her his soul. It is rumored his name was Brandon Stark.
Well, I guess that's all I have for now. I'd like you to post ways that the deceased are still creating motivations for the living.
