Are the Daleks still a credible Enemy Anymore ?

The trouble with reoccurring villains is that they always loose their edge after a while as they have to be beaten for the good guys to win the day. The Borg in Star Trek: Voyager are a great example.

Yep exactly, and also the the Goa'uld in Stargate SG-1. Start off as the big bad...end up as pantomine baddies. But at least there was an arc over 8 series that got them there, and a new big bad appeared. It made sense.

I've yet to catch up fully to the latest Dr. Who, but as a child growing up in the 70's, the Daleks Terrified me and Davros in particular was especially frightening. I suspect the Cybermen will be the same. I think i'll always have a soft spot for them, though.

Old Doctor Who, that I religiously followed as a nipper, had a four week story arc for each monster - there could be more plot and nuance. Now it's monster of the week and the Doctor has to 'win' every week, more-or-less.

As for Daleks. I liked them as baddies, more their voices and bad attitude. But didn't fear them. Stairs were your friends against them. And rough ground. Cybermen looked more dangerous!
 
Doctor Who has lost a lot when it adopted a (mostly) one-off 45 minute (now 50 minute) story format. I don't mourn the padded serials that you would sometimes get but around 75 to 90 minutes felt like the sweet spot for traditional Doctor Who (as distinguished form the more experiment Doctor Who). during the downtime between 1996 (when the unsold McGann revival pilot came out) and 2005, I often thought that Doctor Who could best have return in a TV movie format, around three a year. (think the Christmas specials, only not holiday-themed.) obviously RTD came up with his own new format.
 
Doctor Who has lost a lot when it adopted a (mostly) one-off 45 minute (now 50 minute) story format. I don't mourn the padded serials that you would sometimes get but around 75 to 90 minutes felt like the sweet spot for traditional Doctor Who (as distinguished form the more experiment Doctor Who). during the downtime between 1996 (when the unsold McGann revival pilot came out) and 2005, I often thought that Doctor Who could best have return in a TV movie format, around three a year. (think the Christmas specials, only not holiday-themed.) obviously RTD came up with his own new format.

I do miss the serial format that was the old series.
 
The Daleks were ultimately beaten by a combination of comedians and cheap plastic toys which didn't do the originals justice.
Whilst that is a tragic reflection of the trivialising and destructive nature of our society it does mean that that moment of December 1963 monochrome terror can never be replicated.
Sadly it is time for the Daleks to move on (on a suitably flat metallic surface.) But how do you follow that act? I'm not sure that anyone can :(
 
The Daleks were ultimately beaten by a combination of comedians and cheap plastic toys which didn't do the originals justice.
Whilst that is a tragic reflection of the trivialising and destructive nature of our society it does mean that that moment of December 1963 monochrome terror can never be replicated.
Sadly it is time for the Daleks to move on (on a suitably flat metallic surface.) But how do you follow that act? I'm not sure that anyone can :(
When you say 'It is time for the Daleks to move on' do you mean you think they should leave the show?
 
Has anyone here ever seen the What Daleks think of Red Dwarf . It on youtube ? :D
 
It’s a pity Terry Nation’s Dalek series never happened. Watching them actually win might have boosted their presence somewhat.
Very true. Although I think if recent incarnations of the Doctor didn't treat them so glibly and it took more than a wave of the old sonic to put them on the run they would have maintained their preeminent position of the scariest villains in Whoverse.
 
My 10-year-old self will never forgive me saying this, but no, the Daleks are not a credible enemy anymore. They have now been stock villains for decades, amassing huge fleets at regular intervals only to be summarily wiped out by some ridiculous deus ex machina. They are neither scary nor interesting. The last good Dalek story was Genesis... (well, maybe Revelations... is good for a laugh). They are never allowed to be half as clever, or deadly, or destructive as they are supposed to be.

Watching the very first Dalek story, I'm struck by how the Daleks, while by no means "good," have perfectly intelligible motives, as well as an ability to reason and negotiate with other beings. (The Doctor, for largely selfish motives, has to convince the Thals to turn from pacifists to killers so he can get his fluid link back. )

Just because the Daleks are eeevil doesn't mean they have to be simple-minded or cartoonish.

As for NuWho, neither the Daleks nor any other foe can be credible because the Doctor is basically God. I think the show as a whole is beyond redemption at this point, unless there is someone brave enough to take it over, ignore continuity, and revise the Doctor into something much more modest.
 
My 10-year-old self will never forgive me saying this, but no, the Daleks are not a credible enemy anymore. They have now been stock villains for decades, amassing huge fleets at regular intervals only to be summarily wiped out by some ridiculous deus ex machina. They are neither scary nor interesting. The last good Dalek story was Genesis... (well, maybe Revelations... is good for a laugh). They are never allowed to be half as clever, or deadly, or destructive as they are supposed to be.

Watching the very first Dalek story, I'm struck by how the Daleks, while by no means "good," have perfectly intelligible motives, as well as an ability to reason and negotiate with other beings. (The Doctor, for largely selfish motives, has to convince the Thals to turn from pacifists to killers so he can get his fluid link back. )

Just because the Daleks are eeevil doesn't mean they have to be simple-minded or cartoonish.

As for NuWho, neither the Daleks nor any other foe can be credible because the Doctor is basically God. I think the show as a whole is beyond redemption at this point, unless there is someone brave enough to take it over, ignore continuity, and revise the Doctor into something much more modest.

The Cult of Skarro and its named Daleks whose purposes was to think as the enemy things to defeat them , had huge story potential which unfortunately, New Who squandered .
 
Davros presence does make the Daleks a bit more menacing. Perhaps having him in charge or trying to takes charge of the Daleks might ramp things up a bit?

No. Davros was great in Genesis. Every successive resurrection has just made him (and the Daleks) more and more ridiculous, and robs Genesis of much of its power.
 
hey everyone how are you all :)

I just wanted to say a few things cause I am feeling worn out at the moment but maybe I will go into more detail at some point.

I think if they are not over used and or easily defeated that would help many people take them as a threat

The Doctor needs to treat them with respect and fear though he/she has moved on from The Time War and has seen/beat many Daleks since they are still a highly capable and deadly enemy so maybe the Doctor shouldn't always be acting soo casual when he/she seems them like he/she is fighting Mr Blobby ha :)

The Daleks being able to fly helps with the fear factor I just think they need to be used better, more clever and scheming more on screen deaths by Daleks show their power again like the effect of having all those Daleks smash through Satellite 5, not the same thing but to make us the audience feel their power and respect.

I think their main inspiration many people know and yes we dont need another Genesis of The Daleks but its hard to compete with a lot of New Who aliens who are more psychologically scary enemies such as The Silence, the Thing in Hide and The Weeping Angels, things that work on our fear where as The Daleks though their inspirations are striking and reminds us of terrible things they have seem to have lost a lot of that in recent years and have just turned to bang bang turrets, I dont think Doctor Who can really go down that rabbit whole of their inspiration, if they can it will probs be good to have Davros in the Story but we dont want to re hash Genesis and for long term use like in eps without Davros making us know their inspiration doesn't work so well if the stories dont show us their cunning and clever nature or make us fear/respect them like I said above.

So I think those are the main things, make them a threat and something the characters and us should respect, re enforce their cleverness and cunning nature, make them get away with things like win a bit more but remain a threat like looking back at Dalek Caan.

I liked the idea of The Asylum having damaged Daleks that had survived The Doctor maybe we need a bit more of that to add freshness to the stories, Davros has survived encounters with The Doctor many times or even if he has been brought back somehow he knows The Doctor well and how to trick him ect maybe some Daleks can adapt their plans ect to surviving The Doctor even if he stopped their main plans 'saved the day' they should be more than bang bang (especially with the scary aliens and eps we have now and how kids are more tame to seeing violence ect with games, news ect they are less scared lets say so its harder for many Doctor Who monsters and T.V. shows and films in general to create fear and respect in their enemies and that included the Daleks) and if we need to see their strength in power and plans to help that I dont think thats a bad thing :)

Thank you for listening :)

Regards - Declan Sargent
 
hey everyone how are you all :)

I just thought of something while I was in the Toilet ha that often happens with ideas doesn't it :)

Like I was saying about having some Daleks survive The Doctor and return with better plans it reminded me of a lot of Super Hero films like with Batman and Marvel.

You have the good guy about to win or stop they bad guy and maybe somebody distracts them but however it happens the bad guy gets away like with The Joker and The Red Skull guy escaping the train.

This add a lot of tension and anticipation you know ah shoot we were soo close to stopping the bad guy and you know they are adapting their plans and will return at some point and whatever they do then could have all been stopped if not for that one mistake or mis fortune by or to the Hero.

Even with Uncle Ben you find out Spider Man could have stopped Marko and his crew but through letting them get away thought he didnt know it would have a domino effect that ended up with Uncle Ben's death and it feels tragic and upsetting to the characters and audience, and you can get away with that in films especially SuperHero films that sort of Butterfly effect is often a part of making the character choose what they are gonna do with their lives, are they gonna move on try and live a normal life but do nothing about the cause of the tragedy, are they gonna get revenge or fight the enemy who did it and become a SuperHero and those two last ones often happen in story telling and Super films and even though I said 'get away with it' for story telling it works even if it is a trope it creates that feeling of if things were different adds tension for the confrontation or if they enemy gets away and they pose a big threat tension and worry and respect for the enemy all build with the character and audience.

So I think thats what good be good to use for The Daleks and yes I know the New ones in Victory of The Daleks got away and pose the threat I speak of but outside cause meant the producers and show runners didn't stick with it and we missed an opportunity there but I dont know if its because we have seen Daleks flew before (Dalek Cann) or we are soo used to seeing them in general the impact of that we have escaped you Doctor works for the story of does the Doctor let them go or safe the humans but it doesn't work in the big picture as we know Daleks will come back and The Doctor should try and safe people first and there was no big end for the they got away and they did this we didn't get that and we know that now so it doesn't work anymore in regards to building tension and worry as we know these Daleks getting away didn't result in anything where as when we look back at Dalek Cann's escape yes it was a run away but not we are soo scared of you Doctor we are running its a last ditch effort to survive not cause Cann is scared (The Doctor even offers to help him) its cause he and is kind must survive by any means possible not running away cause The Doctor might blow us up like in Victory, these part is up to interpretation but I think there is a difference in why both ran away and how we as an audience feel the impact of both.

Though my point is Dalek Cann escaped The Doctor was soo close to stopping him from all his efforts to be bad and cause destruction and at the last minute he escaped and even in the ep at the end you could tell The Doctor was worried about it and it felt foreshadowed and we see later on Dalek Cann helped create this massive invasion plan so you can look back and see ah shoot if only The Doctor had stopped him in Manhatten , the meaning for his escape and worry by The Doctor and the show in general all of it built tension about this Dalek and what he would be up to and then when it hit you look back and feel tragedy on it all.

Sometimes its not worry and the hit in a short time frame like in many films, you can build the distance over a series or series of films which all helps build the fear of what is the enemy up to or even after they are back and done bad things the longer they get away with it the more that tragedy of them getting away hurts like with The Joker, if he was stopped long ago or before he went insane and got all the power of his team ect BatMan and his city would be at peace and lots of lives and destruction never occur like The Would you go back in time to Kill Hitler (I'm sorry if I shouldn't have brought that up) my point is if you see all the damage they do later and you know you could pin it all down to a moment in time where they could have been helped or stopped but neither occurred it really brings that sense of tragedy same for Romeo and Juliet I often think of that note (from the film) and if only it arrived on time and thats what makes these stories films ect classic.

To wrap this up I just think if some of The Daleks could have that in Doctor Who maybe through a few Series or we see them in some eps for a number of Series not just the big ending at the end of the series they are from cause we know big bad happens at the end of a series and its normally Daleks (we still need to freshen up their fear factor space of time between appearances ect to help them in general and this/these get away Daleks) if we have that we should have stopped him we had him/they and now they are gone build the tension and worry and give it that impact that hit when they are back and you can keep them around to do more damage and really build that tragedy, much of what I said in the paragraphs above, this effect for a Dalek or a couple of them I think could really help and I sort of forgot my rhythm and I dont wanna go round in circles so I think my main ideas/points are there and this superhero effect I think could really help The Daleks fear factor, build tension for The Doctor and us the audience and make the Dalek or Dalek's who got away encounters more memorable impactful and generate massive respect, fear and tension along with great levels of tragedy depending on what these 'get away' Daleks caused and if they carry on plus with the look back at the time they got away and if only they could have been stopped.

I really enjoyed this and finding patterns in a lot of Super Hero films and great fiction and story telling and writing this all, feeling like I really cracked a great idea for Daleks :) and to think all this snapped into my head while in the toilet ha :) take that Moffat hehe just kidding :)

Regards - Declan Sargent
 
One oddity of the Daleks is that their scariness tends to be inversely proportional to the number of Daleks present. One Dalek, as in "Dalek" and most of "Into the Dalek"? This thing will end you. It is ruthless, cunning and manipulative. Nothing can even scratch it. It will keep on coming, butchering humans by the dozen whether they run or fight. Ten thousand Daleks? Eh, it's fine, just talk fast and confuse the poor things. I think the Giant Army of Daleks is a threat best kept in reserve while the Doctor deals with a more reasonable number of Daleks!
 
Look, some of you find they are getting a bit boring or unimaginative.
You're jaded by them reappearing every season and not progressing in their conquest plans.

They're not here to entertain you, they're Daleks ffs, their entire purpose is to enslave and eventually exterminate you.

Be afraid, be very very afraid!
 
Look, some of you find they are getting a bit boring or unimaginative.
You're jaded by them reappearing every season and not progressing in their conquest plans.

They're not here to entertain you, they're Daleks ffs, their entire purpose is to enslave and eventually exterminate you.

Be afraid, be very very afraid!
Their entire purpose was to make you hide behind the sofa when you were 9 years old. They were scary on a little old 450 line B&W TV when there were only 2 TV channels ( BBC2 did not count) and your phone had to be rented from the Post Office.
You grown-up internet hi-def CGI johnny-come-lately types may be approaching this discussion from the wrong perspective.
 
Look, some of you find they are getting a bit boring or unimaginative.
You're jaded by them reappearing every season and not progressing in their conquest plans.

They're not here to entertain you, they're Daleks ffs, their entire purpose is to enslave and eventually exterminate you.

Be afraid, be very very afraid!
Their entire purpose was to make you hide behind the sofa when you were 9 years old. They were scary on a little old 450 line B&W TV when there were only 2 TV channels ( BBC2 did not count) and your phone had to be rented from the Post Office.
You grown-up internet hi-def CGI johnny-come-lately types may be approaching this discussion from the wrong perspective.

Have either of you ever seen, What Daleks think of Red Dwarf ? I think you can still find it on Your Youtube , It's hysterical. :D
 

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