How many punks are there?

[Tower75]

Hi, all.

I'm aware of 'steam punk,' but steam punk a few years ago used to mean a story set in a world where steam power was the main power and energy supply of the world, and you would have some interesting contraptions, such as steam carriages and mega-steam trains. Most of the time the story had a vey 'Victorian' feel, but ultimately, it was still a 'real' setting, per se.

However, nowadays 'steam punk' seems to mean 'slap brass cogs on EVERYTHING, for no reason, and wear top hats and goggles, for no reason, and walk around with steam powered walking shoes.'

It seems to have turned from quirky, interesting, semi-historical setting to something completely daft that has missed the point completely.

That's my view, anyway.

However, looking around the place, I see other 'punk' sub genres.

Cyberpunk, which seems to be anything with a scifi dystopian feel to it, with lots of cyber stuff, whatever that is.

There's Diesel punk which is a bit like steam punk I guess, but seems to focus on the 'interwar' years and basically involves replacing 'everything steam' from steam punk with 'everything internal combustion.'

There's a bio punk, that's about, well, I don't know, bio stuff, I guess.

There's even an Elf punk!

Where've all these 'punk' sub genres come from, and what do they actually mean?

What say you, writers of words? Are they a nice, fresh way of classifying stories, or a lazy, 'hip' way of making terms up that have no actually definition or meaning?

I'd be interested if what the consensus is.

 

[HareBrain]

They're all very silly. And apart from (possibly) the original cyberpunk, the "punk" bit has no more meaning than the "gate" in every scandal since Watergate. Post-modern or lazy? Pick one or both of the above.

Tudorpunk was great, though, for the single month in which it flared into brilliance.

 

[jastius]

elf punk?
is there elf punk in the house?
are you telling me that terry windling's bordertown series that instigated the whole genre that we call urban fantasy is having another run through? more anthologies about fractured faerie meets glam rock?
oooooh! santa came early!

Holly Black, you rock on girl! ( but please don't abandon chicks in chainmail...)

 

[HareBrain]

are you telling me that terry windling's bordertown series that instigated the whole genre that we call urban fantasy is having another run through?

OT, but I met her the other week. Very nice lady. I'd never heard of her before. Did she really start urban fantasy?

 

[Tecdavid]

They're just umbrella terms, really. A quick and easy way of getting a theme across. If your story takes place in a world you could describe as being "steampunk", then simply calling it so helps others get a sense of setting right away, before you branch out on it. Also, if a reader enjoyed a story set in a steampunk universe and wanted to read more stories like it, the term helps them look up such stories.
The only real trouble is over-using these terms to point where such settings risk become clichés. Otherwise, though, I think they're just fine for classifying things.

 

[jastius]

OT, but I met her the other week. Very nice lady. I'd never heard of her before. Did she really start urban fantasy?

yes! found the book, the new one is called welcome to bordertown ...
here is what amazon says...

Bordertown: a city on the border between our human world and the elfin realm. Runaway teens come from both sides of the border to find adventure, to find themselves. Elves play in rock bands and race down the street on spell-powered motorbikes. Human kids recreate themselves in the squats and clubs and artists' studios of Soho. Terri Windling's original Bordertown series was the forerunner of today's urban fantasy, introducing authors that included Charles de Lint, Will Shetterly, Emma Bull, and Ellen Kushner. In this volume of all-new work (including a 15-page graphic story), the original writers are now joined by the generation that grew up dreaming of Bordertown, including acclaimed authors Holly Black, Cassandra Clare, Cory Doctorow, Neil Gaiman, Catherynne M. Valente, and many more. They all meet here on the streets of Bordertown in more than twenty new interconnected songs, poems, and stories.
here the history link..

the bordertown series

it was geared towards teens and was very real life gritty. it was about runaways with the real problems that can drive someone to run into danger.. which was groundbreaking at the time.

 

[Kissmequick]

One of the forerunners perhaps, and maybe popularised it, but I certainly have read at least one UF pubbed before that - Wizard of the Pigeons (though it might not have been called UF at the time -- the term was still in its infancy) Charles de Lint's Moonheart was also earlier, and Yarrow was the same year

 

[jastius]

moonheart was 1984 and yarrow was 1986, bordertown was 1986, wizard of pigeons was 1985. and urban fantasy didn't have official recognition as a genre. until 1988.

wizard of pigeons used the arthurian mythos..
moonheart touched upon elves but was based more upon native american mythology.
bordertown was a full on interaction with elves and fairy
yarrow was newford and its characters.

there was another one published two years before moonheart about a triad of female archetypes set in toronto, by a canadian author.. however again elves were not used.

 

[Toby Frost]

I wouldn't worry about it. After all, steampunk was a joke name to begin with. Some people seem to have the need to define things out of existence. They may be of some use in roughly describing a story's setting and/or feel, but at the end of the day all that publishers want to put on a book is usually either SF or fantasy.

 

[Kissmequick]

there was another one published two years before moonheart about a triad of female archetypes set in toronto, by a canadian author.. however again elves were not used.

Doesn't need elves to be UF does it? The Pigeons book for instance is definitely UF -- a secret magical world within a vibrant city that is almost a character in its own right. Very good too. Just no elves (I don't recall the arthurian mythos being especially at the forefront either)

Still Borderland was an important series. I can't see that in "introduced" Charles de Lint seeing as he already had at least two books out that are called urban fantasies.

As for the terms, a few of the major ones (steam,cyber) etc can be quite useful in showing the feel of a story. But the more obscure ones do seem a bit OTT to me.

 

[J-Sun]

Kind of like steampunk, I believe, is not supposed to have any fantastic elements and so is a kind of retro-SF, I think of urban fantasy as just being a contemporary/futuristic fantasy where the fantastic elements come from modern things and city things as opposed to unicorns in wooded glens in the middle ages. And, as such, I think of Fritz Leiber as being the originator of it (or at least a significant practiitioner earlier than most), from stories like "Smoke Ghost" (1941) to novels like Our Lady of Darkness (1977). (It's interesting to me too, that one of the prime sword and sorcery series, his Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series, is also known as the "Lankhmar" series after the city it's mostly set in. Even when it is fantastic and medievaloid, it's urban.)

As far as the "punk" thing, I think HareBrain nailed it. The "punk" only loosely applied to "cyber" like the wrong lid on a jar that still worked. The "punk" was more in antithesis to "rocket scientists, engineers, military types, etc." than a connection to actual punk and resonated due to the just-immediately-prior/overlapping explosion of "punk music" as a "thing". And the "cyber" is itself a bit of a misapplication, just indicating a fascination with tech, primarily computer, often integrated with biology, as a fashion rather than a fascination with actual science as a method of thought and behavior. And now both parts are just mindless tags - the "Whatevergate" example is perfect - that I'm tired of.

 

[JoanDrake]

As far as the "punk" goes I think it means a YA story for actual adults rather than adolescents, or just a YA story with explicit sex and/or ultra violence mostly.


Steam and Diesel are both obsessed with airships. At least I've yet to read a single story from either genre that doesn't have at least one mentioned.


And I especially like the "Steampunk" story by Chris Elliott, where he had steam powered cell phones


I've also heard the Manga "Blade of the Immortal" described as "Edopunk"

 

[Tower75]

As far as the "punk" goes I think it means a YA story for actual adults rather than adolescents, or just a YA story with explicit sex and/or ultra violence mostly.


Steam and Diesel are both obsessed with airships. At least I've yet to read a single story from either genre that doesn't have at least one mentioned.


And I especially like the "Steampunk" story by Chris Elliott, where he had steam powered cell phones


I've also heard the Manga "Blade of the Immortal" described as "Edopunk"

Agreed about the airships, they seem a staple to the genre, but steam powered phones? That seems a tad redonkulous to me.

 

[alchemist]

I was looking for a definition of Teslapunk, when I found this Cyberpunk derivatives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An over-abundance of -punks doesn't bother me. I just see it as shorthand for alternate histories with a strong focus on the science rather than the politics, which I quite like.

 

[jastius]

Doesn't need elves to be UF does it?

puts the "elves, mr. frodo!" tee shirt in cupboard, and covers the "honk if your ears are pointed" bumper sticker on the car.

i think it needs a little elf or two to be elfpunk, actually..
from what i have read the planning for bordertown was going on for a couple of years for world building, submissions and things, so who knows what really came first. it might have been a dead heat; and truly, the whole thing was bursting at the seams from when they had the glam hair with the mullets and silk pirate shirts, then started calling those slouch half boots 'elf boots'. those burnt out jeans were a killer look..

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

OT, but I met her the other week. Very nice lady. I'd never heard of her before. Did she really start urban fantasy?

No, but she discovered and encouraged a lot of the authors who wrote it.

In fact, she is quite famous for her innovative editing work here in the US, and discovering many new authors (including me) and nurturing their careers.

She's a fabulous editor. She taught me how to line edit my own work.

The thing about most of the "punk" subgenres, is that the designation is not really meant to be taken seriously. Cyberpunk and Steampunk are real subgenres (though Steampunk has obviously evolved -- or devolved, depending on your viewpoint -- since it's earliest beginnings.) but for the rest, I think people are just having fun making up the names.

 

[Spiegal]

I'm fairly sure that the 'punk' suffix is actually pretty apt, contrived maybe, but it fits the dystopian, rebellious and anarchic kind of societies and characters that inhabit each of these subgenres.

 

[tinkerdan]

All things considered Genre in general are a means of helping to separate out classifications that target specific readers to gain the most mileage out of a novel.

Meaning that it's a marketing tool used to help shelf the material in the bookstore.

Creating new fancy named previously untested genre names seems an oxymoron in the sense that it doesn't accomplish anything constructive in getting a new book out into as many hands as possible. It more than likely will limit the number of readers.

I bought into cyberpunk and even steampunk only after there had been several books out that more or less defined that genre. Cyberpunk in particular had a large number of classics to chose from by the time I was buying Gibsons stuff.

Steampunk not so much that way although as pointed out, as far stretched as the definition now seems to be there might be some older stuff out there we could toss in the pile as some people do with such classics as Metropolis and try to wedge them in.

I think it's a mistake for anyone new to try to define their work as something of a new genre and different unless they really want to be buried in obscurity.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

My readers have greenpunk (not my term) and afropunk (also not mine).

The first cyberpunk was quite punky, since then the -gate effect has taken over...

 

[Tower75]

What is afropunk? Lol. Some sort of 1970s, American-style story where all the the characters have big hair?