History and Fantasy

[sknox]

I've started a series of posts on my Altearth blog aimed specifically at people who are writing fantasy. I'm a medieval historian by trade and know of any number of sites that talk about medieval history, and many others that talk about writing fantasy, but none that discuss medieval topics with an eye to their usefulness in writing fantasy.

Hence the blog.

I have a dozen or so articles queued and will be publishing them every other week. I hope the good folks here find them to be useful. Here is the first:

On Craft Guilds

-= Skip =-

 

[BetaWolf]

I say keep them coming. I'll promote this on the FB Fantasy Writers group that I belong to.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I have to admit that the idea of thief and assassin guilds does bug me - it's something classic writers (ie, Lieber) toyed with, then entered Role Playing Games, and has since became regarded as an acceptable norm by some modern fantasy writers.

Which IMO simply ends up moving the goalposts of suspended disbelief much further away from a reader than is necessary. I don't want a fantasy world to sound like a computer game - if a story is trying to imitate mediaeval Europe then make it convincingly like that instead!

 

[Alexander Lesnoy]

I think as a genre, Fantasy has to get away from Medieval Europe, and the trappings of being "historically accurate". It's about time we started using our imaginations. Sorry if I'm being controversial. It's just my opinion.

 

[sknox]

I think as a genre, Fantasy has to get away from Medieval Europe, and the trappings of being "historically accurate". It's about time we started using our imaginations. Sorry if I'm being controversial. It's just my opinion.

It's a perfectly valid position, Alexander, I don't dispute it at all. Being a medievalist, I naturally chose to write fantasy set in the medieval world. One thing I have discovered is it has required a surprising (well, I was surprised) amount of imagination for me to pull off the alternate history that is Altearth, precisely because I was trying to sail as close to the historical wind as possible. Introducing even a small change has ripple (not to say butterfly) effects. And when I substitute dragons for Vikings, or goblins for Goths, I overturn the cart pretty violently. IOW, I agree that we should start using our imaginations. I submit it's possible, and equally necessary, to do that in the context of historical fantasy.

One other point I think is worth making here. Many, but by no means all, writers of pseudo-medieval fantasy tend to draw from a narrow range. The Middle Ages covers a thousand years and spans dozens of cultures, but most writers pull mainly from the late Middle Ages and England, or else the Viking era and Norse culture. So here's another place where using one's imagination should be encouraged. Why not pull from 13thc Hungarian culture, or Catalonia, or Livonia? How about 11thc Sicily or 7thc Rome?

All the best in your writing endeavors!

-= Skip =-

 

[sknox]

I say keep them coming. I'll promote this on the FB Fantasy Writers group that I belong to.

Thanks, so much, BetaWolf. They'll keep coming. I've got essays on roads, canals, what "old age" meant, coinage, all sorts of stuff. Some of it is pulled from my history courses (which are also online) and some if it stuff that has come out of research for my own fiction. And some of it is just rabbit holes I've fallen down over the years.

 

[Montero]

Use imagination yes - but what bugs me is when there are some nice ideas, but they are not thought through together.
I tend to notice on the economic side - so metal present in such quantities that wouldn't be possible with the level of technology for example. Nothing super-major, but annoying if you've studied history a bit. Working from existing history means the economics are more built in and handled correctly.

 

[sknox]

Use imagination yes - but what bugs me is when there are some nice ideas, but they are not thought through together.
I tend to notice on the economic side - so metal present in such quantities that wouldn't be possible with the level of technology for example. Nothing super-major, but annoying if you've studied history a bit. Working from existing history means the economics are more built in and handled correctly.

This is a constant problem when reaching for realism in a fantasy setting, or really in any fictional setting. One might satisfy 90% of one's readers, but there will always be that specialist who objects.

My favorite example is a website I found once run by a typographer. He had a whole collection of font-related errors made in movies. He had a good sense of humor about his obsession, but for him seeing Helvetica on a poster in a movie supposedly set in the 1920s was as jarring as it would be for us amateurs to see a Ford Mustang drive through the same scene. I myself have the same issues with works about the Middle Ages and especially about the Crusades. I just have to suspend my disbelief a little further out the window when watching or reading such works or I won't have any fun at all.

That said, it's also possible to be boneheaded (dare I mention Braveheart?) about such things. So the author has to tread a fine line made doubly difficult because he doesn't really know where the bloody line is, and different people draw it in different places. One must try, even so.

And that's one of the reasons for my blog posts. I'm trying to set out the historical accuracy part, paying particular attention to elements often needed in fantasy, with the notion that authors can cherry pick as they please. And I provide some ideas to spur that imagination thing we keep talking about.

 

[Montero]

My favorite example is a website I found once run by a typographer. He had a whole collection of font-related errors made in movies. He had a good sense of humor about his obsession, but for him seeing Helvetica on a poster in a movie supposedly set in the 1920s was as jarring as it would be for us amateurs to see a Ford Mustang drive through the same scene. I myself have the same issues with works about the Middle Ages and especially about the Crusades. I just have to suspend my disbelief a little further out the window when watching or reading such works or I won't have any fun at all.

I like that one - not one I'd have ever thought of. Costumes - I know some periods, weapons, decent fencing (so few films do that well). I find it a bit more unforgiveable in films than books, because they have greater resources and it doesn't take all that much to get it fairly right. BBC Drama can do it.....

Depends on how much I have to suspend the disbelief and how often I want to yell "yeah, right, no way you plonker".

Then again, sometimes using modern equivalents can work brilliantly - The Knight's Tale film, where the crowd sings a Queen song at the tournament. Someone understood that a there would have been a contemporary popular song that folks sang at a tournament - and substituted one that everyone these days understands and isn't beginning to be period. I really liked that. I think trying to be a serious historical drama and getting it a bit wrong is really annoying, showing that you understand the period and then being inventive is fine.

That said, it's also possible to be boneheaded (dare I mention Braveheart?) about such things.

Braveheart to me is just a wacky adventure film with good lines (the one about see you in the middle as they attack from either side).

So the author has to tread a fine line made doubly difficult because he doesn't really know where the bloody line is, and different people draw it in different places. One must try, even so.
And that's one of the reasons for my blog posts. I'm trying to set out the historical accuracy part, paying particular attention to elements often needed in fantasy, with the notion that authors can cherry pick as they please. And I provide some ideas to spur that imagination thing we keep talking about.

Yes - and if an author has tried and made the occasional blooper, I'll forgive them.

Good for you on your blog.

Down the years I've spent a lot of time working things out such as "how fast people can travel over a given distance" (Roman empire post horses, 17th century carriages, time of year etc) and driven myself miserable,
also spent a lot of time reading books on sailing ships through the ages etc (sometimes having the character just walking up the gang plank, spending three weeks below decks vomiting and staggering off at destination seems really, really attractive )
That latter makes me wonder if one were to work out how many characters in a book get sea sick would that be realistic in terms of how what percentage of people on a ship really get sea sick. (Yup, I'm an analyst. )

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think as a genre, Fantasy has to get away from Medieval Europe, and the trappings of being "historically accurate". It's about time we started using our imaginations. Sorry if I'm being controversial. It's just my opinion.

Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of fantasy authors I have read who even begin to create a sense of "historically accurate" Mediaeval Europe - George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, David Gemmell, Anne Lyle, and Douglas Hullick.

Most lack any everyday detail - and as I'll keep repeating, wenches and swords do not make a story mediaeval!

 

[Callen Clarke]

I have to say, the idea of Fantasy that's based on the Medieval or Dark Age Europe is really appealing to me. I've often thought it might be fun to write something like that someday. I enjoy reading history from that time period. I think there could be some interesting cross-over potential between 'Fantasy' and 'Historical Fiction'. I'm sure that's been done by someone, but I'd like to see it done more.

 

[sknox]

@Callen Clarke: so glad you feel that way! That's what Altearth is. I write abominably slowly (good name: the Abominably Slow Man), but I'm persistent. Plus, I'm retired.

@I, Brian: expect better from me. Just don't expect it quickly!

 

[Callen Clarke]

@Callen Clarke: so glad you feel that way! That's what Altearth is. I write abominably slowly (good name: the Abominably Slow Man), but I'm persistent. Plus, I'm retired.

Is that your book/project, sknox? 'Altearth? It sounds really interesting. Please let me know when it's available.

 

[sknox]

The project is Altearth, two thousand years of alternate history. My current WIP is called Beneath the White City and is set in Altearth. I've published a short story and self-published a novella set in Altearth as well. You can see the links at the site
Altearth Home
where you can also read some of the background. The web site is a bit of a mess right now as I got NaNoWriMo'ed. I'll get that straightened around RSN. Thanks for your interest!

-= Skip =-

 

[Callen Clarke]

Absolutely.
Altearth... Alt-Earth... Alternate Earth? Or Alte Earth, as in 'Das Alte Werk?' which I believe means 'The Highest Work'...? Please feel free to correct.

 

[Callen Clarke]

Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of fantasy authors I have read who even begin to create a sense of "historically accurate" Mediaeval Europe - George R R Martin, Robert Jordan, David Gemmell, Anne Lyle, and Douglas Hullick.

Most lack any everyday detail - and as I'll keep repeating, wenches and swords do not make a story mediaeval!

I actually agree broadly with both statements. I'd love to see some fantasy built on, say Central Asia, Medieval, Dark Age, Late Antiquity, or what have you. For that matter, Fantasy that adhered close to a particular culture, such as Finnish or Russian or Germanic, etc. would be pretty cool. I'd also love to see some Fantasy built on Classical or Near-East Mythology/Folklore, etc.

I think using your imagination and coming up with something totally original is fine as well, as long as it doesn't wind up feeling like yet another RPG masquerading as a story. Characters should not behave as if they're earning hit-points.

The thing that I find most disagreeable about much contemporary Fantasy is that even when the setting is reasonably convincing, the characters often feel contemporary, dealing with modern issues of identity and self-fulfillment, etc. I suppose this helps readers to relate, but how exciting would it be to write a story where the characters think in a completely different way from us? The thing I'm struck by when I read history of remote times is how closely connected everyone was to each other, and how much they depended on each other, for good or ill. I've often thought that the ethos of communality, where everyone in the village/camp/clan, etc is very closely connected with each other would be fascinating to explore.

 

[Alexander Lesnoy]

The thing that I find most disagreeable about much contemporary Fantasy is that even when the setting is reasonably convincing, the characters often feel contemporary, dealing with modern issues of identity and self-fulfillment, etc. I suppose this helps readers to relate, but how exciting would it be to write a story where the characters think in a completely different way from us? The thing I'm struck by when I read history of remote times is how closely connected everyone was to each other, and how much they depended on each other, for good or ill. I've often thought that the ethos of communality, where everyone in the village/camp/clan, etc is very closely connected with each other would be fascinating to explore.

I think that would depend on the primary emotion in any given culture. In cultural anthropology, there is a division of most cultures on earth as being either dominated by shame or guilt. In the West, we are most familiar with the concept of a guilt society, one in which control is maintained by reinforcing feelings of guilt in individuals for behaviours that the individual believes to be undesirable. More prevalent in the east is the concept of a shame society, where the fear of ostracism and dishonour is the primary device of social control. It's individual responsibility versus shared expectations. More simply: feeling bad for breaching one's own code of ethics versus feeling bad for looking bad in the eyes of others.

There is a lot of crossover, and in certain families, exceptions to the rule, but we're likely to build the cultures for our worlds in a way which mirrors our own life experience/childhood upbringing.

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

Altearth looks like a useful resource.

However, to broaden the discussion, why are we assuming that a fantasy story should have a medieval background in the first place?
Presumably because
a) the source and inspirational legends were created in archaic times
b) if it had a contemporary setting it'd be dubbed 'urban fantasy'.
c) if it had a futuristic setting, it would be indistinguishable from much popular sci-fi.

I too think that we have had enough already of fantasy set in a kind of Medieval Europe. In fact this setting has become a default that young and novice fantasy writers adopt without thinking. Better to have a background based on some other culture - eastern European, Asian, Amerindian or totally invented.

Rather than faithfully recreating an archaic setting, I think that the fantasy writer's job is to sketch in a setting that looks as though it would work as the characters move through it. That means that as well as having the right sort of swords and clay pots, the economic and political systems should feel as though they would work.
The point is to have what's on show look right, not to recreate in massive detail. On a movie set, it doesn't matter if the buildings only have a front, or a room has only three sides, so long as it looks convincing on screen.
That's not to say that an exceedingly detailed setting is bad - this may be the part of the fantasy experience that some readers seek. I'm more interested in a story, and a sense of the exotic and fantastic.

As the original poster intimates, too often writers don't get the details right, so we get massive swords (in reality they were surprisingly light), taverns lit by flaming torches, rowing boats magically propelled across the open sea at fifty knots, futuristic societies ruled by Kings, and so forth.

 

[Alexander Lesnoy]

My responses:

a) I believe it all stems from Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae, written in the 12th Century, which developed King Arthur as a legendary figure, and the 19th Century Medievalist revival shaped by the contemporary Romantic ideals of poets like Tennyson.

b) True. But there are, or rather were, periods in history between the Middle Ages and the present day. I think the most fascinating settings are liminal, between the old and the new, like the clash of science and religion, and the strange melting pot of ideas in the 18th and 19th Centuries.

c) Like Star Wars

d) I completely agree.

e) I think the setting of a story should be consistent with the themes and ideas the author wants to convey. That's the great thing about fantasy, there are no limitations, and we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single period in time, in a small geographical space.

f) No one wants to see those!

 

[sknox]

Alte means old; hoch means high. I liked Altearth from the moment I thought of it because it carries the connotation of alternate as well as old. Plus, it made me think of the Alt key on a keyboard. You press it when you want to change another key. Seemed to fit. When you stumble on a good name, you are required to use it!