Stark/Targaryen Alliance

[LilyDraken]

Touching off of something Boaz said:

Brian, in addition to Sansa being third to the seat of House Stark after Bran and Rickon, she's fourth in line for Riverrun behind Edmure, Roslin and Brynden (and mayhaps Edmure's child), she's probably third in line for the Eyrie behind Robert and Harry, and she's technically Lady Lannister as well. She's anywhere from second to fifth in line to four of the eight great houses. This makes her a tremendous match for the Targaryens... especially if Dany cannot conceive a child.

This raises some really interesting possibilities. It's been something I've been thinking about for a while since I recently finished my ASOIAF reread. The idea of Aegon Targaryen forming an alliance with Sansa Stark.

As Boaz states in his comment, she's well placed as heir in several prominent lines, she comes from an excellent family, is young, beautiful and, so far as we know, healthy.

We know the Targs favor marrying "relations only" but unless Mirri Maz Dur lied again (which is totally possible, but unlikely), Dany is barren, and thus is incapable of producing a strong heir for the Targaryen line. Sansa comes from a line of fertile women, as evidenced by several brothers and a sister, her mother had two siblings, and the only reason Lysa didn't have more children was strictly because of the Tansy tea taken to abort her illegitimate first pregnancy with Baelish.

Sansa Stark, young, beautiful, healthy, well schooled in the histories of Westeros, follower of both the Seven and the Old Gods, and well placed in any number of houses to have alliances. She would be a hefty prize for a young conquerer who hasn't stepped foot on Westerosi lands since he was scuttled away as an infant.

I have more thoughts on this, but want to get yours first.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

that is a really interesting observation/theory. I hope it holds true so that at the very least Sansa will become an important character. Maybe Tywin (on the forums) could stop reffering to her as the potted plant.

Sansa is certainly well placed in terms of birthright and through marriage, but she isn't in a position (yet) to act on anything. If Aegon were to meet with her as things stand at the end of Dance with Dragons, this is what would need to be considered.

As a stark by birth- She would need to reveal herself to northmen who are true to the starks and, in doing so, she would certainly gain support of those northmen, but they would still need to fight off the boltons, Karstarks (maybe) and Hornwoods. so yes, she would get an army, but that army would immediately be engaged in a war in the middle of winter. Also worth noting, she would probably get the support of Stannis (or what's left of his army) since many of his men are Northmen from the Mountain clans. She could also probably count on some support from the wildlings through Jon

As the daughter of a Tully- She could probably get some support from the riverlands but most of their armys have been squashed and their true lord (Edmure) is in Lannister hands. Blackfish may very well be making for the Vale though...

As the cousin of an Arryn- she might be able to use her influence over Robin to get the untouched armies of the Vale to mobilize, but she would need to get rid of littlefinger and she would need to reveal herself for who she really is (maybe to Blackfish). if Robert Arryn dies, then she is Sh*t out of luck unless she marries him first, but if that happens, then she has no claim to the Lannister holdings.

As a Lannister by marriage- she would need Tyrion to come back, and she would need to accept him as her husband to actually have any influence on the lannisters and even then, Tyrion would need to convince the lannister armies to go against Cersei. He might be able to win some support through Lancel and Jaime (if he turns up) but otherwise she has no influence over what the lannisters do and she will never be the lady of the rock.

Her best course of action to gain power right now and be of any use to Aegon would be to reveal herself for who she is, Mary Robert Arryn, use the soldiers of the vale to take back the north, then bring the riverlands into the fold and march south (after obliterating the Freys of course).

 

[Boaz]

Even if Sansa never learns to play the game, she'll always be an extremely important asset.

If the Targs are to reinstate their family as hereditary overlords and re-establish their dynasty, they'll need to procreate. As things now stand, Dany appears incapable. She'll need a surrogate or Aegon will need a bride other than Dany.

The Martells are eager to supply a princess to bear the next generation of Targs.

Sansa is now controlled by Littlefinger. He is planning to marry her to Harry. When little Robert dies, Harry will become Lord of the Vale. But can Baelish control Harry? Maybe.... but when Harry dies (and if know anything about Littlefinger, then you know Harry will die), then Sansa becomes the Lady of the Vale. As Lady of the Vale and as the eldest known heir to Robb and as a friend of The Lord of the Riverlands, Sansa would be not only a catch for the Targs, but for the Lannisters or Tyrells.

It is my belief that Aegon will not survive to the final pages of the story. I do not think that future Targaryen monarchs will descend from him. I am convinced that Daenerys will gain the Iron Throne. She will probably also find a supernatural method of revitalizing her womb. This will allow any ******* Targaryen to impregnate her.... Aegon, Jaime, Tyrion, Jon, or Tommen.

In case Dany remains barren, one of these half-Targs could serve as stud upon Dany's brood mare.... most likely Sansa. Most of these couplings are fraught with intrigue. Jaime is Joff's father and the man who crippled her brother and wounded her father. Tyrion is actually still her husband. Jon thinks he's her brother and he has a penchant for redheads. Tommen is Joff's brother and she once imagined marrying him.

House Targaryen will make political alliances to secure the Iron Throne. House Martell will be the first, with or without a marriage. If Baelish still rules the Vale, then House Arryn will be second.

Lily, I've not been around much since you joined.... Welcome!

 

[Koopa]

i think Dany no longer barren though, boaz

 

[juleska]

I'm beginning to dislike Sansa less, but I still prefer to think of her as a potted plant.

 

[Tywin]

that is a really interesting observation/theory. I hope it holds true so that at the very least Sansa will become an important character. Maybe Tywin (on the forums) could stop reffering to her as the potted plant.

That was either Jules or Needle who started calling her that. I'm just a slave to peer pressure.

 

[juleska]

Don't think it was me, but I'm happy to appropriate. It's the best descriptor.

 

[Tywin]

I think it was Needle.

Btw, I apologize if I'm not paying as close attention to the boards lately. Had a new addition to the family a couple weeks ago, and just started a new position this week at work.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I think it was Needle.

Btw, I apologize if I'm not paying as close attention to the boards lately. Had a new addition to the family a couple weeks ago, and just started a new position this week at work.

Congratulations on BOTH!

 

[LilyDraken]

Boaz, thank you for the warm welcome!

Tywin - Congratulations!

So, touching on this,

Even if Sansa never learns to play the game, she'll always be an extremely important asset.

House Targaryen will make political alliances to secure the Iron Throne. House Martell will be the first, with or without a marriage. If Baelish still rules the Vale, then House Arryn will be second.

I agree with you completely Boaz. Martell will be first in line, and there would still be the family relation there since he's Elia's child, making Arrianne a first cousin.

I don't think Harry the Heir is really going to last that long. If we know anything about Baelish, he plays a deep game, and I can't help but think that once Harry has served his purpose (making Sansa Lady of the Vale), he'll likely befall some tragic accident, leaving Sansa widowed. (This is assuming of course that the marriage-under-duress-and-not-consumated gets annulled.) We know that Littlefinger is more than a bit of a creeper where Sansa is concerned, and we also know he wants the Vale (among other things), and there's a twisted desire for Sansa.

As for Sansa being a "potted plant," I agree to a certain extent. She's a central figure and has been from the very first, despite her being incredibly irritating and downright dislikable. She was 100% useless in the first three books, but she picked up as Alayne. She's learning, even if only baby steps. Her subtle manipulation of Robin attests to that much at least.

As for Aegon not making it to the end of the story, I agree. He's young, he's green and he's itching for command, and at the end of ADWD, he makes the decision to lead the attack himself, despite the fact that he hasn't been in a true Westerosi battle. One could argue he's trying to be like father Rhaegar, but we know Rhaegar didn't take foolish, unnecessary risks. (Note "unnecessary." He fell in love with Lyanna, and there's a certain necessity to that.)

As for Dany getting her womb back in working order, there's a possibility. There are deeper magics than even we the readers know at this point. However if that's not the case, she'll need a surrogate, and Sansa would be an excellent choice, as well as a way of binding the Starks to the Targaryens, something that BFS has been mindful of saying.

 

[juleska]

I think it was Needle.

Btw, I apologize if I'm not paying as close attention to the boards lately. Had a new addition to the family a couple weeks ago, and just started a new position this week at work.

I haven't been around much lately either, and I don't have near as good an excuse.

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

 

[juleska]

Speaking to the rest of the comments above....a Stark-Targ alliance is inevitable. The Martells may be powerful, but they don't inspire the kind of loyalty that either Targs or Starks do....loyalty which will be crucial to reunite and stabilize the Kingdoms. No other House does. And not to overstate the obvious but, it is called a song of ice and fire.

So the question is really just will we have the long-projected marriage between Jon & Dany, or a marriage between Aegon & Sansa, or both?

 

[Tywin]

Or a marriage between Tyrion (Targaryen) and Sansa... which has already taken place.

 

[Eversummer]

Or a marriage between Tyrion (Targaryen) and Sansa... which has already taken place.

that too if its true that he's Aerys' *******

 

[JoanDrake]

I can't help but think that being fireproof and able to control a fire breathing creature is a real advantage, especially in an environment that has no firearms. I'm pretty sure this is the main reason the Targaryens favored incestuous unions. Even in antiquity it was known that inbreeding could reinforce characteristics you liked but the offspring also had to be mercilessly culled, as the bad characteristics were amplified too. In fact, uncontrolled inbreeding may well have been why the last Targaryens were mad and even why the Dragons died out. From what was said about the size of the Dragons getting less and less this seems to be the case.

Now is Aerys a true Dragon? That is, is he fireproof and can he control the Dragons too? If so, he's the perfect match for Danys, at least for now, but Danys/Aegon is setting the realm up for a repeat of what led to the revolt that put the Baratheons on the throne. Yes?

OTOH, Martin has close to a million words to go, by his own estimate; maybe he means to have some apocalyptic development that will wipe out the Targaryens and the Dragons forever, like a Stark-Lannister alliance coupled with the invention of gunpowder

I know this last seems silly but it points out a problem I see here. "Royal Blood" in and of itself, means absolutely NOTHING. The only one whose birth seems a REAL advantage to her is Danys. She is a truly magical creature. (and the fact that she can sit through 12 hours at about a thousand degrees with no harm just HAS to be major plot point somewhere) The others are just people who were born to the right (or wrong, considering what happens to them as a result) parents, nothing more

 

[Potato305]

This Alliance would be very strong! If Daenerys was to marry Bran and have a child, This child would be King of the North and King of the Seven Kingdoms. I'm not so sure about Sansa... But this could work. Ser Jorah could force Daenerys to marry Bran. Reply.

 

[Boaz]

Potato305, Welcome to the Chronicles Network. You're obviously enjoying the series like the rest of us who post in the GRRM forum. I hope you're read up through the end of A Dance With Dragons... because reading posts here will spoil the story for you. In fact, let me post a Spoiler Alert right now for ADWD. So continue reading at your own risk...

If Needle calls Sansa a potted plant, what can we say about Bran?

Bran is now a tree.... more like a whole forest. Besides the fact that he's now grafted into the world wide root, he's also paralyzed below the waist. Paraplegia does not necessarily mean a man is unable to achieve an erection, but I do not think that anyone in Westeros would actually see him as a viable candidate for stud on a barren Queen. And then there's the annoying fact that everyone thinks he's dead. Also, Jorah is not in any position to force Dany to do anything. Dany exiled him upon pain of death.

Now, if you substitute Rickon for Bran, I won't disagree with you. Yes, bring me a shrubbery... err, I mean Rickon. Bring me a Rickon!

Barristan is now Dany's chief counselor. But politics never were his strong suit... He's a bodyguard, mayhaps the best there ever was, but he's not an ambassador, diplomat, spy, or real player of the game. If Dany meets Tyrion and gets past his last name, she might allow him to become a counselor. Dany might also put some faith in Illyrio. And I suspect, she'd like to look to Doran Martell for counsel, but after Quentyn's death I'm not so sure.

Don't forget that Victarion is on his way to Mereen. Of course, Dany's not there, but Victarion's war fleet gives Dany some real options. Yet, the Greyjoys hate the Starks.

 

[Ashara]

I have a funny feeling that Bran won't become a major political player in WOW or DOS. Supernatural player, Other-esque, Old Gods, whatever you want to call it, certainly...but I really don't see a paraplegic boy surrounded by wights and Others, rooted to a tree no less, coming out to play, especially as his journey to the tree took so long.

Dany's last bit of story in DWD threw me off quite a bit. I'm really have no clue what's going to happen with her and Khal Jhaqo (i think that was it?). It would seem a bit weird for her to go out of Meereen so briefly and then come back into the fray again so quickly. But then again, what do I know...

I'm reallllly looking forward to a Davos POV for Rickon. That will certainly be interesting, but I'm not sure how important Rickon can be when he's so young. Imagine, Rickon of House Stark, riding a unicorn to defeat the others with Shireen by his side. I would love to see that.

Mayhaps Tyrion and Jorah make it into the city, or else come across BFS? THAT would be interesting...I imagine Bazza doesn't hold Jorah in very high esteem after the betrayal + not confessing saga of Jorah's. I don't know how BFS feels about Tyrion either...will have to look out for that one in my reread.

Hopefully WOW will come out soonish...but in the interim we can all think up the crazy crackpots...surely one of them must be right!

 

[JoanDrake]

You Brits are all going crazy over royal bloodlines and forgetting that the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys and whatever are just normal people whose ancestors killed the right people. The Targaryens OTOH are freaking FIREPROOF, and dragons like them besides, which might just explain why they like incestuous unions.


I've read that Martin likens the dragons to nuclear weapons. Might he be saying something about royalty too?

 

[Ashara]

You Brits are all going crazy over royal bloodlines and forgetting that the Lannisters, Starks, Tullys and whatever are just normal people whose ancestors killed the right people. The Targaryens OTOH are freaking FIREPROOF, and dragons like them besides, which might just explain why they like incestuous unions.


I've read that Martin likens the dragons to nuclear weapons. Might he be saying something about royalty too?

I was under the impression that Targaryens were NOT fireproof, only Daenerys was? Didn't Aegon and Duncan die in the fire at Summerhall that Rhaegar was always super mournful about? and didn't some other crazy Targ try to drink wildfire to turn himself into a dragon and die? I think Dany has been burnt a couple of times too, something about Drogon's breath made her skin blister or something. That's a vague memory though.

Dragons as nuclear weapons, now that's certainly a thought!

I'm not a Brit! I'm an Aussie... but I DO have a certain obsession with all these royal bloodlines...despite wanting an Australian Head of State but that's irrelevant and off topic. I always thought the Targaryens married incestuously not to preserve some kind of fireproof power but to preserve the pure Valyrian bloodline and look...I think we're all a bit obsessed with the marrying into other Great Houses, but to be fair the characters are like that too. Look at Walder Frey!