The Fires of Heaven (Book 5) - Discussion Thread WITH SPOILERS

[Erin99]

The long-standing tradition continues. Here is the thread for book five, since Hoopy's about to get it.


In this book we see... stuff. I wish I could remember most of it! My WoT marathon has flown by, with so much to remember, learn, and keep track of!

I remember there were interesting parts, exciting parts, lots of Aiel and conflicts... and Rand's new teacher is unexpected! Some characters also shine in this book, but I won't give spoilers.

 

[HoopyFrood]

I do find that I can't remember exactly which book had which moments now, but I think that happens with all big series.

Apparently it's been dispatched and will get here on 20th June. I predict in two days time

 

[Erin99]

YAY! The sooner the better!

Yeah, I've never read a series this big this quickly. It's so difficult to keep track of everything! And the cast list gets soooo much bigger in these later books.

 

[HoopyFrood]

I don't know how people can claim they are selling their books as 'good'. This is barely acceptable. Well, the inside is all right, but I don't think the cover is going to last my read through!

Smells good, though, mmmm.

 

[ratsy]

I don't know how people can claim they are selling their books as 'good'. This is barely acceptable. Well, the inside is all right, but I don't think the cover is going to last my read through!

Smells good, though, mmmm.

So I am not the only one who smells my books.....

 

[Erin99]

Terrible! I hope you leave appropriate feedback. I suppose they mean the text is good, not the cover. But still.... A book is a whole thing, cover and all.

I have to say, being curled up by lamplight with a good-smelling book can be awesome.

Not that I'd know. Ahem.





*goes to flick through the opening of Hoopy's book*

Ooh! You meet another Forsaken! (I'm relying on you having read that far, since it's not far in.)

 

[ratsy]

Leisha, wondering if you are knee deep in Knife of Dreams yet?

 

[Erin99]

Hiya! It's been slow-going cos I've been quite wiped out from designing a website for a client*, so I haven't read AT ALL in two days! But yes! I'm 230 pages in and trying to work out what the three big shaky things were. All interesting so far, and I like what Jordan's done with the ghosts. Who knew ghosts would be involved?!

I can't wait to see what else happens.




*I even had an Epic Fail with my own writing. Seph and I went to Waterstones for our monthly / two-monthly writing sessions in the cafe there, which is my only writing time right now, but we've been so ill with throat/chest infections that we just slumped on the sofa there and couldn't actually write! So we had to give up and go home... Gah! Epic fail.


---------------------------------


How's Hoopy coming along? I've been wanting to track her progress!

 

[HoopyFrood]

At the moment, pining for book four. At least that had so much happening he wouldn't get caught up on weird women things. He's said a couple of things in the first chaptery bit that I thoroughly dislike and I don't care if it's 'part of the world', I just don't care for it at all.

And I don't ever want to hear the words 'lush and ripe' as a description for a woman ever again. Ugh.

But now I've reached Rand's first bit, so here's hoping he gets his act together again.

 

[Erin99]

Heh, I went searching for the "lush and ripe" mention, because I hadn't been upset by it and couldn't even remember who'd said it. I finally found the line - "In any other company but Lanfear's, Graendal would have been accounted a stunningly beautiful woman, lush and ripe" - but you have to remember that we're in the POV of a male Forsaken, who isn't exactly known to be daisies and rainbows. Of course he's going to be sexist, derogatory, and unpleasant. He's not a 21st-Century guy who's been taught not to ogle lasses he finds attractive. I don't see it as Jordan, in fact, but the character. Jordan's got into the character's head there, and the character is arrogant (of course) and used to getting what he wants.

And Forsaken hate each other, so he's reason enough not to be especially kind to them. So if any comments the guy has made in his scene irks you, that's the intention. He turned to the dark side for a reason.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Yeah, I get that it's POV.

Still an utterly stupid phrase.

 

[Erin99]

But surely you can't want every character in a second world fantasy to conform to a feminist's ideal. You'd be writing fake characters if you only had male characters having clean thoughts about women.

As much as I'm a woman and don't like men being sexist, as a writer, I'll be having non-21st-Century thoughts from my characters. To write otherwise would be forcing *my* opinions on my characters, which will not look natural at all. (Doesn't mean I have to go overboard with it, though, or oppress women.)

 

[ratsy]

Grendeal herself has more than a disturbing view of her servants so I really don't feel like anything the Forsaken say should be bothersome. Now if Perrin said it then I would question the use...

 

[Erin99]

That was my thought as well. Grendael treats her "pets" - male and female - terribly, so it's not just the men who are bad to the opposite sex. Forsaken just treat everyone as beneath them.

Anyway, since we don't want to derail this thread with gender discussion:


ratsy, wowwwwwww!!!! That last chapter I just read in book 11 - "Vows" - OMG! Wow! Like, that was brilliant! That made up for the slow Elayne thread I just waded through. And so exciting! And a POV from someone I've been waiting for, too - I screeched!!! How lovely is he, married?! I just know his wife will let him go off on adventures!

 

[Redman02]

i'm actually reading this one now. i am LOVING this series and the depth of it. i actually feel like i'm getting my money's worth. only a few hundred more pages.

 

[HareBrain]

Hoopy, what's happened? You should about eighteen inches in by now.

(Local Waterstone's has one copy each of all the volumes lined up on its shelf -- the fact that it's about two solid feet of paper is partly what made me think "no way".)

 

[HoopyFrood]

Yeah, my speed reading has been slapped in the face of late. I'd just about finished one large freelance project when another popped up very unexpectedly, with very tight deadlines, so last week especially I really did very little else but write. Writing about all manner of topics, but the majority was cars. Gee whiz, I love to write about cars.

But I had to wait for something to be delivered to me before I can start the next big project, so that means I've had an almost week long respite this week. Woo! So I'm now almost 400 pages in (and also completed Plants vs Zombies on the Xbox, yay) -- or just over an inch in Wheel of Time reading measurements.

I think a good six inches could be removed from the entire lot if every other page wasn't given over to incessantly telling us AREN'T MEN AND WOMEN SO DIFFERENT! I very much like the plot and most of the things he's invented for the world, but my god, I think when I've read it I'll go through and cross out all the bits about the above and have a much faster and enjoyable read.

I'm hoping that maybe, just maybe, it'll lead to an ending that will bang some heads together and say, hey look, men and women aren't from completely different planets and working together without all the stubborness and bickering gets **** done. And haven't we all been very silly thinking that the only three reactions women have are sniffing, gripping/smoothing their skirts or folding their arms under their breasts.

 

[Erin99]

Redman02, nice to see you here! Welcome to the Chrons. I'm glad you're loving WoT as much as I am! I'm on the second-last book (nooooo!!!), and I can't believe how great it gets. Branderson's* really picked up the pace, and I love, LOVE, some characters that I was so-so about before.


Tbh, I haven't felt daunted by the width the books take up on a bookshelf. Once you're swept up in the story, the page count doesn't matter. In fact, I really am horrified at the idea of picking up the last book in a week or so... The depth, and yes, the characters, are what makes it. Sure, Jordan had little niggling quirks (yes, arms folded beneath breasts, sniffing, etc.), but by the time I reached Branderson's version, which is somewhat different, I was longing for Jordan's style again. I've grown used to it, and I'm very attached to its cosiness, and while Branderson tries to write the same, some of his characterisations are slightly... off, and some of the writing feels near-Jordan but not quite there.

I miss you, Jordan!

I'm VERY happy that Branderson took up the role and finished the series in record time, at least. And he's done a splendid job of pulling together all of Jordan's notes, character sheets, city plans, etc.



*Yes, I know, I know. I still keep calling him "Branderson". I think the writer in me finds his name wordy!

...if every other page wasn't given over to incessantly telling us AREN'T MEN AND WOMEN SO DIFFERENT!

Ah. If there's one thing I can say, it's that there IS a reason for this. Have faith! And the later books are just MIND-BLOWING in their best parts!

Oh, and Hoops, you should read about Nicola soon, if you haven't already.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Welp, I'm 729 pages in now and lots of stuff has gone down (well, kind of). First big battle of the series. I rather liked that Rand didn't even know it had ended and he'd won until a while after. Though of course the best bit was Mat kicking ass, but I wish Jordan had shown us the fight between him and the Shaido dude.

And Birgette becoming Elayne's Warder, woo! Though it makes me very much notice the lack of same sex couples. Considering how EVERYONE has relationships on the brain, there should have been some by now...

I really just want to read the plot and be done with all the bickering and arguing; it seems to have gone on so much in this book. I was so happy when Birgette turned up in the real world but now she's just become another carbon copy of Jordan's women. And I wish he'd lay off the repetition. Yes, we get that Rand's confused about Aviendha. Yes, Mat wants be off doing his own thing. Yes, Ny doesn't like her bloody dress (but secretly she does). A few times I can deal with; constantly, it's just annoying and takes up so many pages. Chapter 47 could have been left out completely, with a few salient points added to the next one.

I'm hoping the book ends with Ny kicking Mog's ass, Rand kicking Sammael's ass and then book six will be more like book four where there's so much going on it gives people less time to be so petty.

Also, nothing bad had better go down with Nicola, else I'm definitely done with the series

 

[Erin99]

Ah yes! The women bickering. I remember being VERY glad when that was over in this book. The women were each just becoming used to one another, and they were stressed... but I still wished it would stop sooner. I like Birgette once she finds herself, too. Right now she's a bit mixed up with all the past-memories and the loss of her eternal partner.

And heh! I remember you saying you wished women could take women warders. I was waiting for you to read this book! And same-sex couples, hmmm? Iiiiiiinteresting. RAFO, as Jordan would say (read and find out).

Just had a quick skim through Ch 47, too - yes, deffo agree. As much as I loved the circus stuff, it WAS nice to be leaving it. I suppose the chapter was one of the slow chapters to balance out the action to come? That's one thing I'll say about Branderson: he doesn't believe in showing too many slow points. He just skips. BAM! Action. BAM! Action. Bam! More action elsewhere.


Anyway, I can't wait for you to read book 6. BILLIANT beginning, long overdue, and one of the best endings of the series. Well, I don't know if it can compare to some of the later books' endings or high points, but still.... I was amazed with it at the time!