Original space travel idea?

[cakrit]

Hello everyone, I have searched a bit for an appropriate forum to discuss an idea I had, about sending space probes (or robots/jump-gates whatever) to distant stars. The method I am about to describe is unlike any ideas I am personally aware of and has the following advantages over them:

• Achieves near-light speed, without exotic propulsion systems.
• Eliminates the risk of losing the spacecraft due to system failures, collisions etc.
• Does not rely on the discovery of unknown physical laws or methods to circumvent the speed of light barrier.

It also has some disadvantages:

• Can not be used to transport living organisms (single cells maybe, but that's another story).
• Requires technology that may not be available for several decades.

The idea is to accelerate individual supercharged nanites near the speed of light and direct the nanite beam towards the target planet in such a way, that the beam is trapped by the planet's magnetic field and ends up orbiting the planet. At that point, either via some kind of built-in mechanism or a trigger signal sent after the beam, the nanites are activated to form a utility fog that assembles the probe.
The following capabilities are required:

• Nanotechnology that allows a space probe to emerge from an appropriate utility fog.
• A means of either supercharging the individual nanobots, or encapsulating each of them in charged capsules.
• Instruments that permit accurate determination of the magnetic field around a distant planet.
• A means of accelerating the charged nanobots or capsules to very high speeds, e.g. with a space-based accelerator, similar to our particle accelerators.
• A means of targeting the beams of nanobots/capsules so precisely, that we can guarantee that a sufficient percentage will end up orbiting the target planet, in a very precisely determined orbit.

I've made some calculations regarding the necessary charge (physics major back in the days) and it looks like it could be done

The wildest part of the idea is the utility fog part, which will probably soon escape the realm of science fiction. What do you think? Have you read anything similar in a sci-fi novel?

 

[cakrit]

Since I'm a newbie and not allowed to post links, my calculations give the following for a spherical nanite:
For a mass m = ~10-16Kgr
the required surface charge density D = ~1C/m^2

Negatively charging the sphere (adding electrons) would result in high field emission(i.e. the charge would dissipate). Advances in Field emission suppressing technology may be required to ensure that the necessary charge is maintained. Alternatively, the material could be positively charged and have a lattice structure such that the ions are held firmly in place.

Accelerating the mass would require an accelerator like the LHC, which currently accelerates bunches of ~10^11protons which have exactly the proposed mass (*10-27Kgr/proton = 10^-16Kgr). To accelerate 2808 bunches in a single beam, the LHC requires 362MJ per beam.

 

[BetaWolf]

Assembling the probe from nanobots once it arrives at its destination does seem original, but I've no knowledge of the physics involved, so I can't help you there. Now that I think about it, you could also turn it around and write about alien contact on Earth based on the same principle. Good luck.

 

[Ursa major]

That is an interesting concept, cakrit. (I can't say whether it's original or not, but I've never heard of it.)


My only concern (driven as much by my own ignorance as anything else) concerns the events at the far end. Given that something accelerated to near the speed of light and then aimed through a near vacuum is likely to be travelling close to the speed of light at its destination, I have my doubts whether a planet's magnetic field is going to be able to permanently capture, in orbit, your nanites. I can see some hitting the planet, and some whose course might be altered, but not being captured.

However, I'm open to being persuaded that this is, indeed, possible.

 

[jastius]

what about a chemical condensation filter that would draw away electrons into .. say hydrogen which would be supercooled in space and allow itself to be used as a temporary crystal matrix that could dissipate into the cloud as a matter source upon arrival. advances in hydrogen bubble memory systems have been made. that way as long as everything is cold. nothing happens. its stable. i think you have to get into fractilization though for actual unit building. you need something that requires no extra go button. a chemical fractal program held in cold stasis would work.

have you seen the new carbon building triggers? who would have thunk that basic carbon that is used in so many carbon fiber technologies is more electron attractive then metals of any nature? but you could have your little go-bot pick up the stuff as it travels then use lightning as a power agent... of course that would mean descending to the troposphere of said planet.

 

[BetaWolf]

Ursa raises a good point. You would need some opposing force at the other end to decelerate the nanites.

 

[jastius]

just have the whole thing crash into the atmosphere, it will decelerate and bounce along a bit skipping over the surface, then it should attain a proper orbit.

 

[Overread]

just have the whole thing crash into the atmosphere, it will decelerate and bounce along a bit skipping over the surface, then it should attain a proper orbit.

That sounds rather messy - ok for a single object, but for a stream of nanites that then have to find each other and reassemble into a functional object I could see that they'd have such a high chance of spreading out and losing each other that you'd have to send an excess of nanites for whatever it was you wanted to build.

That could work if you could design some kind of docking station - so you fire a massive stream of nanites at the target, whereupon it constructs a docking port which acts as a focus for more nanites so that you can then stream more and have most if not all collect at the dock (and then reassemble).

 

[nightdreamer]

This does strike me as a truly original idea; I've never come across anything like it. And for that reason alone, it is worth pursuing. But the technological challenges will be pretty steep.

In particular, you could never send a charged beam between star systems for a number of reasons:

1. As you do so, the potential between the beam and its source would continuously increase, requiring ever more energy to continue to send nanoparticles. At some point, the potential would eventually pull them back. For positively charged particles, for example, you would also have to project a negative charge such as electrons to keep the charge balanced, and they would eventually find each other, resulting in a neutral beam.

2. A charged beam would repel itself and disperse.

3. There is a galactic magnetic field and local stellar magnetic fields than can be very complex and chaotic, especially around neutron stars and black holes. These would make aiming a charged beam across interstellar distances very difficult.

On the other hand, if the beam were neutral, it would not be trapped by a planetary magnetic field at the other end.

I don't want to discourage you because the idea is so cool that it deserves to be pursued. The utility fog is especially interesting. I'm wondering if you can do something with quantum entanglement there, but that would be bordering on new physics.

Above all, don't give up. I'd like to see where this idea goes.

 

[BetaWolf]

Interesting post, nightdreamer. Might I suggest starting the story with testing it closer to home? Mars or a Jovian moon perhaps? If the story is about developing the beam itself and getting it to work in say Alpha Centauri system.

 

[cakrit]

Wow! What a wonderful forum! Thank you all. I will address each reply separately, so I can reach my quota soon enough and be able to add links for reference.
It will take some time and I'm on GMT+3 timezone, so bear with me...

 

[cakrit]

Now that I think about it, you could also turn it around and write about alien contact on Earth based on the same principle. Good luck.

The idea actually came to me by playing a sci fi scenario in my head. We contact a distant alien species via normal electromagnetic signals and they ask for our permission to construct a jump gate around our planet, so they can come and speak to us in person (because communication takes several years). They have no way of knowing the exact magnetic field around our planet and in our solar system in general, so they can't do it if we don't give them the information. What would it take for us to trust them enough to give them the info?

 

[cakrit]

I have my doubts whether a planet's magnetic field is going to be able to permanently capture, in orbit, your nanites. I can see some hitting the planet, and some whose course might be altered, but not being captured.

That sounds rather messy - ok for a single object, but for a stream of nanites that then have to find each other and reassemble into a functional object I could see that they'd have such a high chance of spreading out and losing each other that you'd have to send an excess of nanites for whatever it was you wanted to build.

Quite messy, indeed. As nightdreamer said, we are talking about chaotic systems. It would be extremely difficult to manage to get the nanites hitting the magnetic field at exactly the right angle and yes, maybe only a fraction of them would end up at just the right orbit. But we don't really care, because it's just a matter of piling up more and more of them. The better we get at it, the higher the percentage of the ones that do get captured. The main question is how you can manage to get at least one to get captured, as nightdreamer said:

There is a galactic magnetic field and local stellar magnetic fields than can be very complex and chaotic, especially around neutron stars and black holes. These would make aiming a charged beam across interstellar distances very difficult.

On the other hand, if the beam were neutral, it would not be trapped by a planetary magnetic field at the other end.

Remember that the assumptions include precise determination of the magnetic fields involved and precise targeting capabilities. The latter may be much easier than the former (see my previous post, regarding aliens asking for data from us, because they can't do it by themselves).

Still, the key is that we are not sending a single, continuous beam, but short packets of charged mini spheres. We could even send them one at a time, if it made more sense. The main question is, can we know where each of them ended up so we can correct the next batch? I'm not sure and it might involve adding some kind of trace signal to each nanite.

That could work if you could design some kind of docking station - so you fire a massive stream of nanites at the target, whereupon it constructs a docking port which acts as a focus for more nanites so that you can then stream more and have most if not all collect at the dock (and then reassemble).

Definitely cool idea. The nanites would somehow have to find each other if they are ever to form the cloud. I haven't thought much of exactly what would need to happen on the other end, until we end up with a solar-powered satellite moving at much slower speeds than c, but I will explore that further.

 

[cakrit]

In particular, you could never send a charged beam between star systems for a number of reasons:

1. As you do so, the potential between the beam and its source would continuously increase, requiring ever more energy to continue to send nanoparticles. At some point, the potential would eventually pull them back. For positively charged particles, for example, you would also have to project a negative charge such as electrons to keep the charge balanced, and they would eventually find each other, resulting in a neutral beam.

2. A charged beam would repel itself and disperse.

Regarding #1, I don't think I properly explained how the "beam" works. We use an accelerator to slowly increase the speed of a batch of nanites (they are charged, so it can do it). Each nanite in the batch leaves the accelerator by itself and just maintains its momentum. I don't know if the potential buildup at the target would become an issue, but it has to do with what exactly happens after they are in orbit. I suppose that the nanites will have to start attracting each other at some point, in order to begin interacting with each other, which brings me to #2.

Even if it were a continuous beam of charged nanites we would be sending, my understanding from my physics days is that would actually become more focused. Moving charges generate magnetic fields in such a way, that they actually attract nearby charges moving in the same direction. It's the reason electrical wires attract each other. If you are aware of a different mechanism for ion beams, please share, I could not find anything.

 

[cakrit]

Might I suggest starting the story with testing it closer to home? Mars or a Jovian moon perhaps? If the story is about developing the beam itself and getting it to work in say Alpha Centauri system.

Of course that would be the only reasonable way to start. You crawl before you walk!

 

[cakrit]

what about a chemical condensation filter that would draw away electrons into .. say hydrogen which would be supercooled in space and allow itself to be used as a temporary crystal matrix that could dissipate into the cloud as a matter source upon arrival. advances in hydrogen bubble memory systems have been made. that way as long as everything is cold. nothing happens. its stable. i think you have to get into fractilization though for actual unit building. you need something that requires no extra go button. a chemical fractal program held in cold stasis would work.

have you seen the new carbon building triggers? who would have thunk that basic carbon that is used in so many carbon fiber technologies is more electron attractive then metals of any nature? but you could have your little go-bot pick up the stuff as it travels then use lightning as a power agent... of course that would mean descending to the troposphere of said planet.

Please elaborate. I am not aware of the technologies and how exactly they might be applied here. The problem to be solved at the destination is how to get from single nanites orbiting at near-light speeds to a solar-powered mechanism that managed to reduce its speed and orbital radius. To get to the troposphere you first need to slow down, without losing your charge. How do you do that? I don't have any answers yet, I was more focused on whether it's possible to send them in the first place. I will definitely start thinking about it and it seems like you may have something here.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Other concerns would be:

- Both the originator of the beam and the target will be in motion, so that would need to be corrected for
- You are still going to have to construct an incredibly massive number of nanites to cover distances measured in the span of light years
- Even at the speed of light, it is still going to take years, decades, millenia, to connect with non-local targets

So far I think the main problems are the sheer volume of material nanites required would be restrictive, plus the big challenge of breaking the light barrier has not been addressed so any success will take an extremely long time.

 

[jastius]

use the charge.. ( use the force luke...)
okay so you have a positively charged thing that is basically being slingshoted like a superball through galactic outer regions because of its slickness in being positively charges. well the problem seems to be 1- how do you keep the beam going, and 2- how do you get it to stop. both of these problems can be solved through limited fusion capabilities. splitting hydrogen. that way you get a bomber load of these things collecting around each other like a snowball rolling down a hill as they travel, using their own power source as fuel .. at the other end you have a creature of enough mass to begin the replication cycle and as these hydrogen atoms are attached in bubble memory matrix form the blueprints continue for the replication of the original machine form.
once there at super light, the smooth super bouncy has to transform into soft and sticky to adhere to its planetary orbital. when we are talking about nano size the atmosphere is hit by that stuff all the time. but you take a whole wack load of positive and try to bounce it off its polar opposite, you have a whole bunch of sticky all of a sudden. stasis, and result in out-surge of energy. the energy starts the process by unlocking the fractal building program. the nanos would have to be composed of something that would be readily available at the other end and has a matrix that can lend itself to hydrogen bubble memory and carbon came to mind. plenty of building materials in that. you see you can not have traditional computer memory systems in a beamed object... you have taken apart the positives and negatives that make it up and there is no way to to retro start a chip upon your destination so you have to use a different tech to bypass this problem. then the problem after that is containment fields for the different aspects of the nanos and a trigger to start reaction, which has to be something available upon reentry. there is no light speed remote control system. so no signal from here and no signal capable of being carried equals chemical signal upon achieving a certain predetermined state. after that the problem is in replication. .. but the best way i know of in non-programming programming is a chemical fractal convergence matrix. that wakes up when you get there. the fractals automatically start rebuilding themselves in the nature of all fractals and upon converging rebuild your nanos into machines. i just like the idea of a triple based trigger system- energy / light/ gravity/ electro magnitism / heat vs. cold... otherwise the thing might sticky to a singularity and when the aliens jump through or we do there'd be some mighty unhappy campers.
i love this thread.. super cool idea and very god in the machine concepts.

 

[cakrit]

- Both the originator of the beam and the target will be in motion, so that would need to be corrected for

Obviously. You also need to avoid the Van Allen belt, which is teeming with annoying particles trapped in orbit at near-light speeds.

- You are still going to have to construct an incredibly massive number of nanites to cover distances measured in the span of light years

You don't need a continuous beam. You send a few bunches, then wait for a few years, to see if your calculations were right (assuming you can track them, of course). You then send more and more of them, always in bunches.

- Even at the speed of light, it is still going to take years, decades, millenia, to connect with non-local targets

Of course. The speed of light barrier is a bummer, but we don't know if and when we'll be able to circumvent it. BUT, suppose the way we do actually get around it requires two jump gates that somehow utilize entaglement for teleportation. We can send the nanites with half the entagled particles at light speed to our destination, so they can construct the remote gate. We can then teleport what we want from our gate, instantly.

So far I think the main problems are the sheer volume of material nanites required would be restrictive, plus the big challenge of breaking the light barrier has not been addressed so any success will take an extremely long time.

The amount of nanites depends only on two things, the number you need orbiting the target and your accuracy (i.e. what % of the nanites you send actually achieve orbit). I really don't know which of the two would be the biggest issue. Still, my guess is that the cost of building and maintaining an accelerator like the LHC in space would probably be orders of magnitude higher than the cost of constructing the huge number of nanites needed.

 

[cakrit]

1- how do you keep the beam going

You don't need to keep it going. Inertia does it for you. There's nothing in the way to slow it down.

I will try to digest the rest of your post. It's all very new to me, so I have to do some reading first.