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Really, it very much depends on whether you want us to know the ins and outs of the incident or you just want to concentrate on the emotion of it. For instance, my female lead also has nightmares, and the prologue is one of them, and I've written in a very disjointed way, so you can't be sure who is talking or exactly what is happening (though I'm also hampered in that she's got her eyes shut at the time... :eek:).

I think I was going for a bit of both. I want people to know what happened in the moments before Sera saved Kateryn, but I also wanted to show the emotional side of it for her as well.
 
Congratulations on your 2K!
I will echo what others have said about the varying age of the narrative voice. Her gender was also unclear to me at times. I started out thinking she was a boy (age 3-5) but two phrases stuck out to me as being distinctly feminine before you made her gender clear, and two phrases pulled me back to a more masculine view of her. So I teeter-tottered on that abit till you made it clear. Once she is in the vent she stays feminine for the rest of the piece.

I have had dreams about the past. Its a very... odd... thing. I'd be more than happy to share my experiences with you if you think it would help. PM me for them.

This didnt feel at all like a flash-back dream feels to me. I dont know if this is me being disadvantaged because I have had them, of if it is something people who havent had them would struggle with as well.
To me, it felt like a retelling, where one tries not to fall back into the moment but wants desperately to relate exactly what happened with all the emotional turmoil and trauma intact. Hence the age shift in the voice.
I didnt feel the emotional content of the dream ever got older than 5, and when she waked up I assumed a regressed 10ish. The language was often much older and I found that slightly jarring.

very ambitious, and a good start on it.
 
Thanks Hope. It is more likely that I'm trying something here that is nearly beyond my ability to pull off - wouldn't be the first time. And the simple reason for that is I'm not able to write it from the perspective of my own experiences. Somebody like you, who has had dreams of their past, would more likely be able to do it better.

I think what would help me most would be understanding how exactly the dream is in people's minds. Like the regression and coherency. Do they think they are actually back there at the time, or is it altered because they have matured? Is the scene clear in their mind, or is it a blurry mess?

I'm going to make it sound older at least. In hindsight, I do see that things like scary machines and bad men is far too young for her.


Out of interest, and if you have the time, could you point out the bits where it sounded masculine, please? Just so I know.
 
Thanks Hope. It is more likely that I'm trying something here that is nearly beyond my ability to pull off - wouldn't be the first time. And the simple reason for that is I'm not able to write it from the perspective of my own experiences. Somebody like you, who has had dreams of their past, would more likely be able to do it better
This is why I offered to help. :)
Warren_Paul said:
I think what would help me most would be understanding how exactly the dream is in people's minds. Like the regression and coherency. Do they think they are actually back there at the time, or is it altered because they have matured? Is the scene clear in their mind, or is it a blurry mess?
It depends on what brings on the dream, whether it is a dream, nightmare, or nightterror. There are distinct differences between the three that have less to do with content and more to do with the way you wake up. Though content is an easy way to define them in most cases.

The way you have her wake makes me think of just a nightmare. In which case a third person view would not be out of place. Emotionally intence but with a pointing up of the contradiction between what really happened and what was felt to have happened.
I often find that nightmares about a past event if not factually accurate are emotionally accurate on a fantastical scale. In these regression plays a big role and age of the dreamer varies vastly.

If you are wanting to get a flash-back in the form of a dream, (while rarely accurate in life, they are commonly accepted enough in fiction for me to want to help you get it right rather than dissuade you from doing it) I would go for the nightterror. Especially if you want to have a close 1st POV.
In which case she would wake up suddenly, with her body leaving the dream state before her mind does, the shock of seeing rampant normality usually enough to end the dream.

If you want an example of a nightterror please PM me.

If you want to stick with nightmare (which depending on how much she has dealt with her past [and it sounds like not much at all] I feel could be a mistake. The only way to cure night terrors is to face down what is in them.) then add more scents and sounds, and worry less about what is really happening. The closer a nightmare is to a nightterror the more real it feels. So the fluffiness of her stuffed animal would itch in her hand as she is running away as well as tickle her face as she hugged him close and mat stickily against her check as he absolved her of her tears. The scent of electricity and gunpowder would be more noticeable than sparks or bullets. The tone of her parents voices more distinct than their words. The harshness of the light as it burned her eyes. The machines sounds would take on her feelings at the time. Angry thrumming, Frightened squealing, Desperate pounding, Lonely silence. (I've also heard Lonely throbbing, thumping and shushing so really any sound can take on just about any emotive quality. The louder the sound the more intense the feeling, most of the time. Roaring silence is the most panic inducing sound I have ever heard in a dream) Personally for your scene I would go for Lonely throbbing. Pain is also reduced, so it would be the taste of blood not the pain of biting her tongue she would notice.
I've woken up from nightterrors with bruises where I had slashes and gashes and broken bones. Nightmares dont seem to mark me as badly, unless they are very close to nightterrors, then only in an achy kind of way rather than a physical injury. Pain is more stretchy or stabby in dreams and not at all linked to how it would be in reality.
I mean. I've had the same kind of injury in different dreams (even different versions of the same dream) and felt a different thing depending on which layer of reality the dream is trying to deal with.

You say she's been having this dream for a long time. When I have the same dream over and over, something gets added or subtracted each time. So, while it's the same, its not the same. Depending on what I have dealt with and what brought the dream on.

I'm having a hard time not going into specifics and giving concrete examples. For more clarity please PM me.


Warren_Paul said:
Out of interest, and if you have the time, could you point out the bits where it sounded masculine, please? Just so I know.
nearly ripping my arm out of its socket- I would think dislocate

I didn’t care that he couldn’t talk back- he would talk back

be brave and not cry- I have never been told to be brave and not cry


I read through it three times to be sure I got all the ones that made me question. Realized they are all based on my experience of what is expected of boys and girls, and so relegate it to the realm of opinion.
 
I'm feeling a bit tired, but I couldn't really see anything that stuck out as needing criticism. The character voice appeared to be that of a child, probably female.
Good work.
Since my own dreams - the ones I can remember - were generally a lot of old rubbish, I'd say that having an accurate dream about a past traumatic event is a bit of artistic licence. So is the nightmare an accurate account of what happened?
 
Thanks Hope. That's some really helpful information, and more than you had to share publicly, so I really appreciate it.

I have quite a bit of thinking to do.


Edit:

Thanks, Geoff.

In this case it was accurate, but I think I need to push it a bit into the fantastical it seems.
 
Everybody else has had a go, so I don't have too much to add. You set yourself a difficult task, one I probably wouldn't try. The one thing that stood out for me was how coherent she seemed. I wonder if you made it present tense, would it help. As it's a dream, and short, it wouldn't risk annoying those of us who are disinclined towards present tense. You can make it extra-disjointed too.
Something like...

There's shouting in the hall, and gunshots too. Mamma's pulling me ... so strong, my arm hurts. I'm holding Benjamin, my only friend...(etc etc)
 
Everybody else has had a go, so I don't have too much to add. You set yourself a difficult task, one I probably wouldn't try. The one thing that stood out for me was how coherent she seemed. I wonder if you made it present tense, would it help. As it's a dream, and short, it wouldn't risk annoying those of us who are disinclined towards present tense. You can make it extra-disjointed too.
Something like...

Thanks Alc. I've tried disjointed present-tense in the past and it tended to jar with most people. That doesn't mean it's not possible, but probably even harder to achieve than what I'm doing here.

Considering that I also hate present-tense, it makes it extra hard for me. But yes, the coherency seems to be an issue I need to deal with.
 
I found that really interesting too, Hope -- very useful things to bear in mind for anyone writing anything along similar lines.
 
Oddly enough, though my dream-memory prologue is in past tense (well, kind of) another bit I do is in present tense and it works just fine as a discrete section, so again it might be worth trying. In a way, having it jar might not be a problem, because you want to get over turmoil and a feeling of being unsettled, so if the writing itself sets people's teeth on edge, then it might help the atmosphere. (Though I'd then keep the scene on the short side, just in case!)
 
Sorry, Hex. :eek:

I'm sure I could get through a present-tense book if you wrote it.


Ooh yes, anyone could... I like present first, though.

Um, wp, after a fair bit of research i do flash back dream sequences in first, not third (so the other way round, but fr the same reason i think), and i do them in heightened clarity. Not sure it works but i did get comments along the lines of very yuk t***ure scenes ( the word i don't do anymore), so i think maybe they did. Just a thought, and maybe changing to third could heighten the disassociation from self and mark it as seperate?
 
Okay, so this is an experiment based on people's comments. It might be complete rubbish, or it could be absolute brilliance. I have gone way out of my comfort zone to attempt it, but like the strange eerie feeling the tense gives. You'll be pleased, Hex, it's present tense, except 3rd, not 1st - I know, shoot me now - but I'm starting to feel the tone it gives matches a fantastical nightmare quite well. I just hope everyone else agrees. :eek:

You'll see soon enough that the setting has changed into a crazy interpretation of the same events twisted into a more dream-like state. Everything still happens, but now that it's fantastical, it gives me the opportunity to add some hints and some foreboding. I also had light switch on in my head in relation to something else I had been planning, so managed to fit it in here too. I think it all turned out quite the psychological thrill ride.

The narrator is a 17-year-old omniscient version of Kateryn in this scene. The lack of dialogue in some points is quite realistic in these situations, incase anyone was wondering about the points it mentions voice yet has no dialogue.

I know it's still pushing the word limit at 1361 words - even though I tried to cut out everything I could, it ended up bigger because of fantastical elements - so I'm not expecting a line-edit. Just overall comments if people feel inclined to give them, or if you want to tell me it's crap and I should go back to the old version and touch it up. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure I've captured all the advice given me, but lets see if it just sounds good in theory, or actually works in practice:


* * *​

Shouting and gunfire echo down the hall. A family runs from the Blackcoats chasing them, the mother pulling her daughter along by the hand, the girl trying so hard to keep up that her legs start to hurt. A toy bear dangles from the girl’s hand, tattered and well loved, its fur prickling her skin. Its right eye is missing. She wants to stop, but her father yells at her, his voice forceful, frightening.

The girl looks back, worried when her father’s voice isn’t as loud this time, and sees he has stopped and turned around. The walls swirl around him like a dark cloud born out of her imagination, strands of black smoke tearing away from the wall as if they are hands trying to reach for him. The girl panics, starts to cry, and her mother is forced to drag her along.

'Please, Daddy, don't leave us,' the girl says, but he doesn’t listen.

Her father raises his rifle. Sparks shower down around him from where a bullet hit the lamp overhead. The Blackcoats are closer to him now, their jaws open wide, fire escaping from within, and their eyes smouldering with an orange glow that matches the guns they hold.

Her mother pulls her through a set of double doors and they slam shut. She hears her father’s rifle fire, twice, but then a heavy grinding sound throbs in her ears. Her mother leads her through a forest, the branches of trees twisting as they reach for her, but every time they get close, her mother turns away. The trees cry in protest and the ground shakes whenever a branch comes to a stop.

With her chest freezing from shortness of breath, they stop, and only then does her mother let her go. They stand before a mountain that reaches all the way to the dark clouds above. The clouds flash, and thunder rumbles across the sky.

Her mother claws at the bushes and pulls them aside, revealing a cave hidden behind. She draws the girl close, and kneels before her. The girl feels her mother’s panting breath on her face, like a thousand tiny fingers dancing over her skin, and the beat of her heart races in time to the way her mother repeatedly squeezes the girl’s arms as she speaks.

‘Listen, Kateryn. No matter what you hear. No matter what happens. Don’t make a sound.’ She shakes the girl. ‘Not a sound. Promise me!’

‘I promise!’ the girl cries. The forest is darker now, the trees are closing in on her, and then her mother pushes her inside the cave. Turning back, the girl sees her mother let go of the bushes. ‘No, don’t you leave me too!’ she says when she realises her mother wouldn’t be following her. ‘Mother!’

The girl tries to peek through the bushes, but it is pitch black, just like the cave. The thunder is deafening in her ears, growing so loud it hurts, and she hugs the bear close to her, feeling its fur tickle her face like a spider web.

The thunder stops and she hears angry voices yelling, but she can't make out the words. Her mother’s determined voice answers them. The sound of gunfire cuts through the wall of bushes, and the girl screams and covers her ears. Her tears soak into the bear’s fur as it sticks to her skin, matted and scratchy. She tastes the coppery tang of blood in her mouth where she bit her tongue.

The noise stops, and a dreadful silence replaces it. Slowly, the girl lowers her hands and reaches for the bushes. She tries to move them aside but they don’t budge. She is trapped, and all alone, she realises.

Suddenly, light blinds her as the bushes are torn away. A dark shadow fills the cave entrance, a massive face peeks in, and glowing amber eyes fix on her. The monster’s mouth twists into a frightening smile.

‘So this is the child who will destroy the world,’ it says in a booming voice.

Its huge arm reaches for the girl and she starts to shuffle backwards, until her back touches the end of the cave. She swallows her scream, and the lump in her throat, then curls up into a ball, as if that might hide her from sight. The monster’s breathing is loud in her ears like the growl of a lion.

The light bursts into a thousand tiny snowflakes. The girl gasps and tenses as the world beyond the cave vanishes, the man too, and even the cave. She floats in a pure white nothingness, yet her eyes are drawn to the woman in its centre.

A scar runs through the woman's right eye. She smiles, her silver eye sparkling with sympathy. Her long, brown hair floats around her head as if she is underwater, and wings, covered in emerald feathers, hang from her back. She stretches her wings out, arches her back and the nothingness shatters apart, returning the girl to the cave in the middle of an earthquake.

The girl screams and buries her head in her lap. But slowly, the earthquake dies away and the girl glances out from between her knees. The monster is gone, the bright light is also gone. Another woman stands in view of the cave entrance, looking at the girl. She has blonde hair, and is dressed like she is going to war.

The woman turns away, as if she has forgotten the girl is even there, and leaves her; just like her mother had. The girl crawls from the cave and steps out onto the open plains of a field. The wind howls in her ears. A large wooden pillar rises up before her, a series of faces carved into it. She gasps when the bottom one is her own face staring back at her, looking sad and lost. A woman’s face is carved into the wood above her, but the woman looks to be in pain and suffering so much her eyes are pleading for release. The wood breaks into multiple pillars after that, twisting around each other until they reach a final face right at the top of the tall statue.

The girl’s breathe catches in her throat and she stumbles backwards, landing on her bottom. The monster’s face grins down at her, fires burning inside its eyes. Her hands sink into the damp ground and she looks down. The grass is stained red. She is surrounded by the bodies of those who’d chased her, their skin all red and black as if they’d died in a fire. Her eyes flutter from one to the next until she finds one familiar to her. She starts to cry as she crawls over to her mother and shakes her, saying. ‘Mamma… Mamma? Wake up.’

But her mother doesn’t wake.

In desperation, her cries grow into screams so loud her voice fractures the sky like a broken window and blood seeps through the cracks, flooding the area, and trying to drown her. She cries out for her mother.

‘Mamma!’ I screamed, and lurched upwards, reaching for the surface. I broke free from the ocean of blood, gasping for breath, struggled from the bed, and hastily crawled across the ground. Everywhere I looked, I saw red; covering the floor, my arms - my nightclothes.

It wasn’t real, I told myself, and squeezed my eyes shut. When I opened them again, the blood was gone – the room was how it should be. I wiped the sweat from my brow. That nightmare again. Every time, the same one. I rested my cheek against my knees and tucked them up against my chest. Fur tickled my palms. An illusion; I’d lost him. I couldn’t even remember when.

I’d lost all desire to curl back under the blankets with the feelings left behind by my nightmare still so close to the surface. My shift stuck to me, soaked with my sweat, making my skin itchy. I needed to get out of it, and get clean. There was one luxury I’d come to enjoy in Tūmau Ngiha; one luxury that would help wash away the bad memories.

*​


Back to the drawing board?
 
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Um, some of it is better, the disengagement etc, but I found the omni hard to get into, and it made it read a little cold for me. Some of it, too, I think is a little overdone:


‘Mamma!’ I screamed, and lurched upwards, reaching for the surface. I broke free from the ocean of blood, gasping for breath, struggled from the bed, and hastily crawled across the ground. Everywhere I looked, I saw red; covering the floor, my arms - my nightclothes


Seemed a little too much for me. Oh, and I liked the vent better than a cave. I also have a problem with some bloke turning up to a traumatised child and announcing she's going to destroy the world. I think the author put it in to let me know part of his plot, and if I was with the man who'd said it, I'd have whacked him for cruelty to traumatised kids. :)
 
I thought at the start this was probably an improvement, though having it in third-person strongly suggests we are looking at the girl from outside, so I think this would be difficult to integrate smoothly into a first-person narrative.

My main issue is that it's too long. You have a long sequence of paragraphs of similar length, which doesn't help as it feels repetitive, but on top of that, it feels too unreal to sustain this length. However fascinating dreams are to the dreamer, they're almost never very interesting to anyone else because the symbolism is so personal, and there's the same risk in fiction (though I found Simon's dreams in The Dragonbone Chair an exception, possibly because they help reveal a mystery we've already seen hints of). This is too unreal and random-feeling for me to relate to. The first version didn't have this particular problem because it felt lifelike.

You might try focusing on a few of the more crucial elements, making them seem more lifelike and important rather than a train of weird happenings that pass in quick succession.

Just my opinion, though.
 
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Um, some of it is better, the disengagement etc, but I found the omni hard to get into, and it made it read a little cold for me. Some of it, too, I think is a little overdone:


‘Mamma!’ I screamed, and lurched upwards, reaching for the surface. I broke free from the ocean of blood, gasping for breath, struggled from the bed, and hastily crawled across the ground. Everywhere I looked, I saw red; covering the floor, my arms - my nightclothes


Seemed a little too much for me. Oh, and I liked the vent better than a cave. I also have a problem with some bloke turning up to a traumatised child and announcing she's going to destroy the world. I think the author put it in to let me know part of his plot, and if I was with the man who'd said it, I'd have whacked him for cruelty to traumatised kids. :)

Interesting that you thought it too much, because the intention behind it is the dream is carrying on into the waking world - or at least that's what I was attempting to achieve. The last we saw was her drowning in a sea of blood, so when she wakes up, she's still in that sea - except it's all in her head. But from the information I've been given, getting out of that dream-state and realising you're no longer in it is part of the process and doesn't happen instantly. Of course I'll wait for the expert to come along and tell me whether I got it right or not. ;)

And in regards to the destroy the world comment, he is intentionally scaring her, and we already know that plot element - it's made clear in the very first paragraph of the book, and the first chapter - so it isn't there for the sake of getting that across.
 
I liked it better, but felt it needed heavy trimming. You've got reputation of emotive elements. I wouldn't balk so much at this if she felt she was being dragged by the waight of something sinister throughout, but feel that trimming the excess would be the better option especially if the concencess comes back that its too long.

Posting from my phone on a sleepless night or I'd give examples.
Um. I'd cut the tottom pole and the lion half of the growling. Have the guy speak demonic gibberish or appear more human. Liked the bit with the dad, unless the number two is going to be an issue with her I'd bring the forest bit up by dropping him once the mist infolds him.

Good stuff. Fantastical. But in serious need of trimming. Loads of potential. *wanders off muttering to herself in a sleepy way*

*edit:wanders back in* oh yeah the blood. What color are her sheets? I like the clawing out of the blood bit it carried on about half a breath long I thought. I'd drop the bear if you're going to do the blood. Or have him pull her out of it as she's screaming mother so its not the room dripping blood that caries over but the fuzzy in her hand.
Oh yeah I like that.
Cause then she's forcing reality back with 'no i lost him ages ago' not 'oh im in my room' both could be reality but the bear has better litterary prospect.
 
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