Robert E. Howard's Conan and racism

[Mirannan]

Referring to people by race in order to identify them is not necessarily racist; it depends on intent and what else you say about them at the same time.

And racial characteristics are genuine. It is a simple fact that people whose ancestry is from some (not all) African races tend to have thicker lips and wider, flatter noses than (for example) Scandinavians. (Oddly enough, this also applies to Australian aborigines although they are probably the most genetically different from Africans.) Again, mentioning this is not racist in itself, any more than using their skin tone as an identifier.

OTOH, some racial identifiers are indeed insults. The N word is an obvious example, but not the only one. The term "cracker" is an insult, for example.

 

[Overread]

Words change meaning constantly and even the same word can have variations in meaning based on its contextual use and even based on the person saying it. For example N***** is currently both an insult, but also a word used by many of African decent (often but not exclusively) in America when greeting each other.

My understanding is also that it was originally once just a term such as black or coloured which steadily gained a negative connection through the way it was used and how many people from Africa were put into slavery and servitude by western nations.

So even a single word like that can have three massive variations in meaning. An old book referring to a "nigger" might well be just the same as if a modern book wrote "black person" or "native African". Like many things context is critical for understanding and interpretation, though I think with fantasy one bonus is that we can often ignore the context of the writers own motivations and values and purely take the book and story presented at face value.

 

[Vladd67]

Words change over time, some people change quicker than others. I remember seeing a YouTube video of a professor explaining to Chinese and Japanese Americans on campus why the term oriental was racist, the look of confusion on the students was rather amusing.

 

[Mirannan]

The word "oriental" also has the advantage of precision. "Asian" is extremely imprecise, as shown by the fact that it means (usually) different things in Britain and the USA. "Asian" could encompass Indians, Pakistanis, Tibetans, various Far Eastern races and even some Russians.

 

[Vladd67]

If oriental is regarded as racist by some is occidental also no longer in favour.

 

[psikeyhackr]

The word "oriental" also has the advantage of precision. "Asian" is extremely imprecise, as shown by the fact that it means (usually) different things in Britain and the USA. "Asian" could encompass Indians, Pakistanis, Tibetans, various Far Eastern races and even some Russians.

I remember reading this rant by Rudyard Kipling about the Russians being the most Western of the Eastern people rather than the most Eastern of the Western people. I just laughed and chalked it up to his being a racist idiot.

 

[BigBadBob141]

I think most writers of the past, if touching on the subject of race would, by today's standards be considered racist to some extent.
And no I don't think Kipling an idiot or a racist for his time.
Have you ever read his poem "Gunga Din".
It ends with the words "Your a better man then I am Gunga Din".
Hardly the sentiments of an out and out racist.
Mind you he did write "Fuzzy Wuzzys", but we all have our off days!
P.S. I suppose Enid Blyton is also racist.
When I was little I had a Noddy book in which he was mugged and stripped naked (kinky) by the dreaded Gollywogs!
P.P.S. What ever happened to the Robinson Marmalade Gollywog badges?

 

[Overread]

Corporal Jones fought the Fuzzy Wuzzy's and recounts several tales of them in Dad's Army and most don't consider it "racism" (in fact I bet most people don't even notice it for the most part).
And lets not even touch on the legion of insults thrown at Germans in WWII and WWI films; or the insults to the Irish in things like Sharp (both books and TV). In fact I'd wager most of us would consider it very odd to read any war-based novel or TV series and not see any form of casual insult toward the enemy - be it being based on race, colour, creed, ideals or such. We'd also expect bits with the enemy to fire such insults back on the good-guys as well. It's expected human behaviour in such situations and is a reflection of the depiction of human behaviour rather than (in most cases) an attempt to create real racism*

I think sometimes in our bid to avoid being racist one can end up seeing it in far more places than its intended to be or can take comments totally out of context and situation.


*Though I will accept that originally many such sources might have used it as such. Eg WII films, both during and after, were heavy on the propaganda element.

 

[BigBadBob141]

As half of my relatives are Italian, it would always annoy me when people made jokes about Italian tanks having three forward gears and five reverse gears!

 

[Vince W]

I think most writers of the past, if touching on the subject of race would, by today's standards be considered racist to some extent.
And no I don't think Kipling an idiot or a racist for his time.
Have you ever read his poem "Gunga Din".
It ends with the words "Your a better man then I am Gunga Din".
Hardly the sentiments of an out and out racist.
Mind you he did write "Fuzzy Wuzzys", but we all have our off days!
P.S. I suppose Enid Blyton is also racist.
When I was little I had a Noddy book in which he was mugged and stripped naked (kinky) by the dreaded Gollywogs!
P.P.S. What ever happened to the Robinson Marmalade Gollywog badges?

Kipling, being born in India, had a real affection for the country and its people. However, I don't think his stories would have been understood by the English public at large at the time if he hadn't used some derogatory descriptions of other races.

 

[psikeyhackr]

And no I don't think Kipling an idiot or a racist for his time.
Have you ever read his poem "Gunga Din".
It ends with the words "Your a better man then I am Gunga Din".
Hardly the sentiments of an out and out racist.
Mind you he did write "Fuzzy Wuzzys", but we all have our off days!

Yeah we read those in school too.