Breaking into Sci-Fi versus Fantasy

If you have two female characters talk about sewing so you can pass it, you'd be better off asking why those characters only seem to exist in relation to the male characters and you need to apply such tricks.

Well, in my case it's because they live in a highly patriarchal society (16th century Europe) where only men can own property, become MPs, doctors, lawyers, etc - and I'm basically writing spy thrillers. It's hard enough fitting women into that milieu, without trying to exclude men from their conversation.

In fact I'm finding it very difficult to think of a non-domestic topic of conversation they could have which would not involve men at some point!
 
I'm with Anne on this, except I'd go further and say it's all but useless for anyone who is writing seriously. If I have two female cops who discuss how to bring down the big crime boss, and spend the rest of the book doing just that, I've apparently failed if the boss is a man. More to the point, if they spend the entire book talking about nail varnish and hair extensions I've passed the test with flying colours even if they do sod-all to the plot. Yeah, right. That's just the kind of test we want to ensure that women appear properly represented in novels.

Write characters, people. Make some of those characters women and give them jobs to do. Let them talk about whatever they want to flaming talk about as long as it's important to the book.

NB springs -- no. The test is for women to talk to women. So it doesn't matter how much your female characters talk to men, you've failed if they don't talk to each other.
 
And the mountain seems very high, and it is, so we'll all of us, in our own wee way, might have to help the others up.
J.

Ah, indeed Springs. It's good to have experienced authors (Teresa, the two Ians, Anne, Stephen Palmer …) at SFF Chrons to advise us. And yep, I look forward to helping others up when up on that mountain!!! Sigh.

I broke into Sci-fi. I got time off for good behaviour. :)

Mr Overlord, you're great -- you keep making me laugh!!!

… humour exists in Science Fiction.

Certainly it does. Jack Vance is another fine example.

Don't write to market. By the time you've finished your magnum opus that's supposed to plug that gap you've spotted, the market has moved on.

Indeed, Ian. I made the same point in one of Hex's recent threads. The speed I write, if I were planning to fill a gap in the market I'm need a time machine -- i.e., zip 5yrs into the future.

I'm hoping that some things – like my use of humour to take one example – will be appealing to any readership. People like to be entertained, if the pitch is right.

You need to have faith in what you're doing, and believe that your work is good enough to be a part of that cream, no matter what knocks you take along the way.

Thanks Ian, THAT was an inspiring post.

I'm trying not to get a big head, but I do believe in myself. I'm sure I'll succeed too. One day.

Ah, self-belief. What I'm currently writing is almost always awful, but I try not to let that knock my confidence too much. In fact, it's so normal for me now I take it as a good sign!

After all the painful writing and rewriting is over I always (touch wood) look back and say, "Did I really write that?? It's actually … my god, it's good!" Then it's the next scene and right back to "Gosh, this is dreadful!"

Coragem.
 
After all the painful writing and rewriting is over I always (touch wood) look back and say, "Did I really write that?? It's actually … my god, it's good!" Then it's the next scene and right back to "Gosh, this is dreadful!"

Oh yeah. I know that feeling. There is a scene in my book where everyone who has read it so far as shed a tear for the character -touching wood now, never too late for someone to brush over it and feel nothing. But your dead inside if you do- :p I'm looking at it and thinking: "Wow, I wrote something that powerful?"

But now I'm looking at later scenes and thinking, why did I even write this rubbish, so rewriting them.
 
And the mountain seems very high, and it is, so we'll all of us, in our own wee way, might have to help the others up.
J.

I second that. And a refreshing change from some dark corners of the internet, I might add.

Mr Overlord, you're great -- you keep making me laugh!!!

As long as you're laughing at my attempts at humour, and not my serious posts...what? I can so do serious! ;)
 
So what are the normal topics of conversation? Depends on the women. :)

At coffee break at work, women to women, mixed group, men to men, I've heard anything from
Work
Boss
Colleague
Childcare
Cooking
Bargains
IT problems
Spouse
Relatives
Football/other sport
TV
Books
Moron who cut you up on the way to work
Best garage for your car repairs

Can't think of a single conversation about opera....:)

Which makes me wonder, taking it to extremes - if two women discuss football and all footballers in the team are male...... :)
Also, unless this is relevant to the plot, how many conversations of this sort would you actually want?


And question - is space opera included in science fiction in terms of who reads what and how much is read?

Just thinking Liaden books for example.
 
It is the sci-fi I like the most so was wondering if there was a higher proportion of female readers on space opera as compared to hard sf.
 
It is the sci-fi I like the most so was wondering if there was a higher proportion of female readers on space opera as compared to hard sf.

Not sure about sub-genres, but sci-fi in general I think balances out 50/50. Other genres are known to have more female readers compared to male though.

I'd imagine Space Opera is more accessible, so would likely have more female readers, compared to hard sci-fi, but don't have any stats to compare that to, so just what I'd suspect is the case.
 
Okay, so lately I've been corresponding a bit with Alastair Reynolds!!! (Such a nice guy!!!)

Anyway, his suggestions to me, in terms of breaking into SF, were basically along the lines of: persistence, joining groups, going to conventions, and maybe trying some short story submissions. I.e., that's how he did it.

He also said:

There is a perceived bias against new writers but I can state categorically that it's not the case; all the editors I know are fanatical SF fans and are *always* looking for the next big thing. The big splash around Finnish author Hannu Rajaniemi is a case in point, and he is anything but an obvious commercial talent. (Although he *has* turned out to sell very well.)

Encouraging, isn't it. Sure, we need to do our part (write and keep going until we're writing amazingly well), but there's hope if we do.

Coragem
 
In response to Coragems opening post, I would say the most important things to have are.

a) Belief - You need to have an ironclad 100% belief in your work, write the best stories that you can, but also believe in them.

b) Patience - Only the very rare few ever write a novel that became a bestseller overnight, When I first published my first novel E.D.F chronicles : The Krenaran massacre. It took six months to acquire the kind of momentum it did, to attract readers, who, in turn talked about the novel with their friends, people who would be interested and so on. In the U.S. this is how it took off, not so much by blogging, or tweeting, but by simple word of mouth. It has grown to such an extent now, that it is in effect, doing its own marketing for me.

The popularity it has had in the U.S. has slowed a little due to spring break, but that popularity is now transferring into U.K. sales, and has seen my books shoot up the charts on amazon this month.

c) A willingness to be inventive - Try to break new ground, I know its a bit of a cliche' but don't be a sheep and simply write what everyone else is writing. Try to write something new, fresh, and different, and the readers will eventually respond. Don't do what a lot of other authors do, and write for the market, because the market is constantly shifting, write for yourself and enjoy what you write and it will show through in your work and ultimately in the reviews and sales you get.

I started out self published, my work has now made the top 100 lists in both U.S. and U.K. I am coming close to my first 1,000 downloads, which to some maybe not that many, to me though it is a huge achievement, especially without the resources other authors take for granted. Even still, I am only half way through my series.
 
a) Belief - You need to have an ironclad 100% belief in your work, write the best stories that you can, but also believe in them.

Well, yes, and no. I had so much belief in my first novel that I worked on it, on and off, for about fifteen years. In the end it became like the Vietnam War -- I had so much invested in it, I couldn't afford to pull out. Then reality kicked me out anyway. I now realise that everything after the first three years would have been better spent writing something else.

I think it helps to believe that writing is what you "should" be doing (however you care to define that). But believing 100% in any individual work is perhaps not so helpful.
 
OMG 15 year's!

I have had a nice dose of realism on here, but its not managed to shake my self belief. I know I can tell a good yarn. The rest, well who knows - but I'm having fun challenging myself in the processes...
 
There's no doubt in my mind that SF is a hard sell, but especially if you are repped with it and it goes out to the big houses. Planet Janitor really got the editing overhaul from my agent, and a name-author--they both polished, edited, proof-read right along with me the entire six-month way. As tough as the prospect of selling it was, my agent believed he could unload it. Well, after a year we had no takers (16 submissions), so it was left up to me to send it out to some of the smaller houses.

I don't know why, but the reception from the small press was phenomenal. I even got a small advance from the first offering house. But they soon went under. The next house offered on it, but gave me a really poor contract. The third house was relatively new, but SF was all they published, and I would be their debut author. The third house's contract was a vast improvement over the others, and they added clauses specifically for me.

The book just released not too long ago (in e-book format) and is certainly holding its own on Amazon Kindle. But I have to say that promoting/marketing a SF space opera really takes some intuitive and unique skills and ideas. I knew I was missing out on the vast reading audience (gals), and tried to come up with some ideas on how to reach them. Then I remembered that I had three solid romance subplots in the storyline, and tried to emphasize and explain that to the female audience.

Writing the book was a cake-walk, compared to selling it and getting the buzz out. We went above and beyond the call of duty as far as production. The publisher went hardback first, with a wrap-around lithograph cover that was rendered from oil and canvas--an expensive artist solicitation. They added 28 illustrations, chapter heads, table of contents, and unique front and back matter content and formatting. The hardback alone retails for $30.00, but we only sold about three or four of those. The e-book took off only after staggering the price points and free trial periods, in addition to adding prequel short stories that linked to the book

Would I do it again with a smaller independent? No. Because I know that my up-and-coming werewolf thriller, with a heavy romance element, will blow its doors off sales wise. Honestly, I would only try another SF book again if my present agent really got behind it and sent it out until hell wouldn't have it. I think SF really needs solid distribution and book store placement to do well in today's reading climate.

Chris
 
Hi,

I write both sci fi and fantasy, and honestly I can't tell from one month to the next which books are going to rise and which will fall. The one thing I can be sure of though, is that angels are doing a nose dive, which is a damned shame since that's my current work in progress. But hey, I write because I like it, not to sell, - that's just the icing on the cake.

Cheers, Greg.
 

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