Destiny's Conflict: Speculation SPOILER WARNING!!!

Discussion in 'Janny Wurts' started by dekket, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    I think Janny will be moving through time a fair bit on the last book, there are also some past events she might look at, concerning the Paravians and certain things. And yes it is important I think to the story, to see what started each age of redemption, or at least be told the stages things progressed through, up to the point Arithon finally leaves them for a trip on the other side of the veil, which is outside of time. Arithon might have even been lost, while visiting the past.

    At least one spirit might not be anchored to current time, and might have lead other lives. It might be important to the story we get a glimpse of that side of things and where it was all leading. And then there is that cinder of a fallen star, which became 12 swords, one of which was Alithiel. We might get a glimpse of events that would explain what that cinder once was and what might have returned with it. I think there are a lot of things hidden in what we have already seen in the books. But we have to wait for the last book, the last piece of the puzzle to see what Janny has hidden from us.
     
  2. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Another thing to keep in mind is, when Davien built Kewar and later the Five Centuries Fountain he had no idea, as far as we know, that the Mistwraith was going to be invading through South Gate. There was a purpose behind Kewar and the fountain, they would be connected. Davien never built them for himself, who did he intend them for? Why does it seem there was a prophecy concerning a Prince of Rathain, that had Davien make the wrong choice the first time, with tragic consequences. Kewar has been used by others, but a Paravian would not need extended life, only a mortal would. As far as we know, the half brothers have been the only ones to drink from the fountain. I would think, Davien intended it to be used more than once, the role he has in mind for Arithon, might need him to live for a very long time.
     
  3. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    Davien has always seemed to me to be all about making others prove themselves. If he found value in the Fellowship despite his willful actions to get himself cast out, he'd be the type to not put any trust in the prophecy if he'd not had the chance to vet its subject first. As for using the fountain more than once, who knows? It's not common for Janny to turn something that was an element of surprise the first time around into designated/purposed tool going forward, and Arithon would have refused the drink the first time if he'd come to a little sooner. For this reason, I think he'd be less likely to choose to take another drink (I have to go read the passage again to see if there were limitations on how many times one might drink from it) than he would be to accept Rathain's crown, but I guess we'll see...
     
  4. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    There are no limitations on making multiple trips to the fountain, just as there are no limitations on Dakar's longevity bindings. Dakar is over 500 years old, both seem to work the same. But only Arithon would return to the well and take on the trial of Mearths Shadows, which would be set back to guarding the well. Elaira would probably renew her longevity bindings a less dangerous way. But the system would be set up to 'clear' conflicts of the heart and mind.

    Davien never does anything without a purpose. And they would all believe the prophecies, since they all know the sources are reliable. I bet even the dragons got a prophecy dear to their hearts, and are just waiting for it to be fulfilled.

    The wish of Arithon's heart.
    Desh-thiere's curse was a memory, all bloodshed behind him. He could abandon both crown and sword without guilt and reassume the pursuit of his music. Elaira's voice called him. Her open arms promised him peace, and the delights of unimpaired freedom. Together, they would build a bright future. Immersed in the rapture of her tender love, Arithon beheld a shared life made full. Together, they could study the grand confluence of the mysteries and raise a family of gifted children.
    -Peril's Gate


    The purpose of the tempering
    'Keep on,' said Arithon in gritted rage to the unseen Sorcerer's presence. 'You'll just scour out every weakness I have, until nothing remains to exploit.'
    -Peril's Gate


    The problem, there are others, but this is the related long term one.
    He had already run afoul of the Five Centuries Fountain. The Betrayer's grant of longevity already exacted its toll of afflicted sorrow. A man must live on while his closest friends aged. Over time, the relentless shadow of loss must poison an isolate future.
    -Peril's Gate


    If Arithon had the wish of his heart, why would he not be willing to take another sip from the fountain? Kewar would expose any conflicts of conscience for Arithon to deal with, and in order to get past Mearth's Shadows, Arithon would have to forget any memories that caused him too much sorrow and pain. Or maybe just forget everything, he has bit of experience at already suffering that, but why then the weighing of conscience? The amnesia is likely to be selective.

    The effect drove a victim to insanity or, if he was rarely tenacious, to amnesia, since the only possible defense
    was to renounce recall of all but innocuous past experience.
    -Curse of the Mistwraith


    Which still leaves what exactly Arithon is to become, what plans has Davien got for him. Arithon probably already knew before he lost his memory. It would free the Fellowship to do what they want to do, Davien is doing this to get his freedom from that compact. But it benefits Arithon as well if he can get what he wants, which at the moment still seems impossible.

    ‘Give me torture and loss, give me death, before I become the instrument that seals your utter destruction.’ ‘Of all the atrocities I have done in the past, or may commit in the future, that one I could never survive.’

    Arithon means that literally.

    Davien has concentrated on Arithon so far. The alternative if it goes wrong would be Lysaer. Arithon could maybe imprint Lysaer with his memories and like Jieret and Tarens give him a guided path through the mysteries in order for Lysaer to survive. Arithon is possibly going to do something like that either way. He wants to save Lysaer.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2015
  5. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    I just don't see Arithon getting the wish of his heart, studying the grand confluence of the mysteries and raising a family of gifted children. It's what anyone reading the book would want for him, but I've yet to read a Janny Wurts story that ended "happily ever after". The possibility of Arithon imprinting Lysaer is intriguing, but I can't see that happening either, or at least not until the climax of the series.
     
  6. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    You do not think Athera's masterbard, master of Shadow, master mage cannot achieve his own happiness? He was not called fates forger for nothing. If he can give everyone else what they want, but not make a future where he could be happy, at least for a while, it would be a poor ending otherwise.

    Davien was not the only one who indicated Arithon would find happiness. The Biedar also have mentioned it some where. And Lysaer also should get a third chance to be happy, and what ever his eventually fate, well he chose it, so has no one but himself to blame. But I think Lysaer's words when he spoke to the shade of the centaur were from his heart, cursed or not he would do what ever he could to protect humanity. So even if redeemed, like the Fellowship, he might choose a fate not that peaceful or enjoyable. The imagry Janny gave us as Lysaer was lead away from the Kings chamber in Althain tower was interesting.
     
  7. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    It's not that I don't think he's capable; left to his own devices, he's quite capable, as you suggest. I don't think Arithon can achieve his own happiness while any of his burdens remain (his compassion won't let him rest in such a state), and I think that his final resolution of all those burdens will come with a cost. I wouldn't be at all surprised if that cost is his life.
     
  8. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    We have it from several sources that Arithon dies. Jieret's Sight, Ath's Adept at Althian tower, the Biedar. And Arithon's reaction on the fallibility of the longevity binding when interrogated by Parrien was interesting. If Arithon is the key to Lysaer's salvation it seems unavoidable. And then there is the thing with Elaira, he would die before allowing her to come to harm.

    Transcendent initiations and intimate knowledge of necromancy are hardly normal requirements for an earthly king, as well as what interesting secrets Arithon learned from Davien's library, he seems to know a bit about the Biedar, even if he was not willing to listen to their prophecy that concerned his future. I am not expecting Arithon to stay dead although how that happens is still a mystery. If all the major conflicts end in the next book, and the last is Song of the Mysteries, who normally has done the singing so far? Why does Athera need a Masterbard?

    Burdens and all Arithon seems able to be happy, it was Lysaer, Morriel and the Fellowship that got in the way. Arithon has already proposed to Elaira, so he knows something we do not.
     
  9. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    So do we think Lysaer is going to to be facing eternal damnation after the next book, or can Arithon and Daliana save him from his own judgement? Lysaer would have betrayed everything he once believed in, and everyone who ever believed in him, he might have after a very rocky start stood by Daliana, but still he did betray her, desert her and tried to kill her, all before their relationship got started, he could yet under influence of the curse find a way to make her life miserable. In Lysaer's own words in the presence of a that centaur's shade Lysaer said "I would forfeit salvation before taking the chance of abandoning mankind to the darkness" Even if Lysaer can forgive himself for what he has done, there is still that debt. Will Lysaer protect them from the darkness of his own making?

    In Kewar Arithon was careful not to offer to help the damned who pleaded with him.
    "The least intervention to try and ease pain might invoke the consent for a tie of commitment. Yield out of kindness to just one lost child, and the Teir’s’Ffalenn knew he might bind his fate to the plight of these hapless victims."

    Has Lysaer not willingly made such a commitment to the townborn? Could that commitment extend beyond death? Elemental mastery, grand conjury, Lysaer has the same potential as Arithon for mage talent, what might Lysaer become. A fair few townborn seem bound for Sithaer, who will save those lost spirits? Who was it who lead them down the road to damnation? Who beguiled them with lies, threats and blandishments, from Ath, pretending to be Ath's avatar and their savior? If Arithon seems set to save all the lost spirits on this side of the veil, the one who wanted to be his opposite and balancing force, maybe should save the rest? Lysaer seems determined to get to Sithaer anyway, already being cast out of the compact, with worse yet to come.

    Or does Lysaer maybe end up in a place or limitless light? The Paravians do seem to want him in Athlieria, to come home.
     
  10. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Janny needs to show us I think, what changed to start each new age, or at least start us off so we can work it out, how human civilization evolved, and especially how Arithon grew to become what he was always destined to be. I am thinking Ithamon will be an important marker for how they are progressing, how much they have restored. The way they are going more towers are likely to fall before the end of the major conflicts. We might be visiting some earlier ages yet in the last book, to see how things worked out as they did, the grand plan behind it all. Especially the forging of a certain sword. Janny has a lot to reveal yet! Maybe not all Ath's secrets and the mystery of creation itself, but something along those lines. Look carefully on the next re-read though the series, where is the story going? What will be the Song of the Mysteries?


    Seems to be Arithon attempting to sneak off in the latest snippet, as prickly as ever and still untamed. Wearing a canvas coat, among a family that thinks of him as an outlander, they do not seem clanborn. Has someone been playing around with his memory again? Close to a year has elapsed since the start of Destiny's Conflict, in Chapter 6 it is Spring 5924, we started Spring 5923 with not much time elapsed since the end of Initiate's Trial. On the yet to be polished pile I bet it would be Dakar with the tummy upset, Cosach is dosing and packing on the poor overladen horse. Something about self pity? Guilty conscience maybe? What did Dakar stuff up I wonder, or is he still agonizing over past mistakes?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2016
  11. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    With Janny's latest update of 150 pages of polishing to go, she would have probably finished 11 main, all I could read of that little glimpse she gave us was late spring-early summer, the paperclip was though the year, but it was not spring of 5924 where chapter 6 was set. Did not seem to be 5925 either. Arithon started out chapter 6 with what seemed 6 main being called interval. He appeared to be trying to sneak off, rebelling against domesticity and the country life. Might Asandir have made good on his solution to the problem of the conflict from back in CotM and taken drastic steps to keep the brothers apart? Arithon would have been the one to suffer, not Lysaer. But keeping the curse dormant or at least quiet would give Lysaer a chance to be happy, build his new city and enjoy some quality time with the new wife. And give him another chance to stuff it up, allowing another lot of necromancers to settle in and make themselves comfortable. They do seem attracted to Lysaer.

    So do we think Asandir has meddled? And what do we think he did?
     
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  12. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering if by the end of Destiny's Conflict, Arithon, will just be Arithon. No family name nor s' signifying separation of consciousness, but like the Fellowship, just one name. Arithon of Athera.
     
  13. dekket

    dekket Well-Known Member

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    Arithon of Athera, I like the sound of that.
    Or would, like the Fellowship, he end up changed, and take on a new name?
    The Seven stopped using their birth names and took on new names, when they were summoned and reforged by the binding of the great drakes, and found redemption in the Paravians.
    Would Arithon's journey and evolution end up with him attaining a new, different perspective/consciousness, and a new name also?
    Or will he always be Arithon, with all the history (and baggage) that may entail?
     
  14. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Arithon's evolution is more gradual than a drakes dreaming, by Davien's determination to keep Arithon out of sight of any dragons, I am thinking they will have nothing to do with Arithon's miraculous survival in the next book. Arithon is a born talent, not a dragon created one, we have seen how he is evolving to survive the trials he faces. I think while human he is always going to be himself, we just get to uncover him a bit more. Now his memory of his past might not survive so well. The hint with the crystals being cleared, how Arithon struggled against Asandir's meddling at the start, and would lose consciousness. The hint of how someone might survive Mearth's shadows, resulting in at least partial amnesia, they would have to let go of those memories they could use. I do not think Arithon will be keeping all the hurtful baggage. Eventually Arithon might be able to walk through kewar, without suffering. And already Arithon has had his memory or his past tossed to oblivion, yet it seems he can recover it.

    I think eventually Arithon will evolve beyond his human identity, and become something else, but Janny might only hint at that. But we do have those interesting names that from descriptions seem to be more than just nebulous entities formed by mortal beliefs. Ath Creator, Daelion Fatemaster, Dharkaron Avenger. If Ath Creator seems to be a well founded entity, where did the legends of the other two come from? What might a fate forger with an inclination to master things become? How are music, compassion, mage powers and the elements tied to creation? And Dharkaron's vengeance we might get a closer look at in the next book, have to wait and see on that one.

    But on a more fun note, Janny's new short story is out in digital format, I read her contribution to Unfettered II yesterday, downloaded the kindle version. My hardcover is I think being posted next week. Dec 6th was the release date.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
  15. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    The cover art and the individual images that went into it has been posted on the Paravia site.
    Destiny's Conflict - Cover Art


    A bit off putting, but Janny likes her symbolism. An executioners sword dripping blood, was seen by Dakar in one of his visions, might be the same. The vulture and sword look a bit similar to the symbol Arithon was wearing on his new royal attire, along with something that was gold. Might be something else, some other bird, we have yet to get a good look at the new portrait of Arithon. The vulture in the cover art wears a circlet around its neck with a red symbol on it. A vulture need not be a bad portent, a symbol of air, it could also be a symbol of renewal, death and rebirth, and there are other meanings Janny might have in mind. The necropolis although not mentioned anywhere in the books I could find, is right near the town of Daenfal and looks to be Paravian, it is surrounded by the sunwheel goons who seem to think they have someone trapped. The sloop on the stormy seas that looks to be in trouble might be Arithon's old sloop, or maybe a remake of it if it never survived Arithon's absence. The swan inset in the icon would be a Koriani symbol.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  16. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    Surely Janny made arrangements for Talliarthe to be put up on dry docks whilst Arithon was trying to remember who he was? Talliarthe is WAY too cool of a name for a ship to suffer a slow death from sun, salt, storm and barnacle, no?
     
  17. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    The clans would have probably maintained Khetienn and sailed her, during Arithon's 250 year or even longer absence, it might take a while for Arithon to get his memory back. But I am thinking the small pleasure sloop might have suffered a bit of neglect even if safely stored away. She might not have been as durable as Arithon. I do think the sloop in the storm is Arithon's, maybe symbolizing the storm he has to survive, or a real event in the book, just might not be the original Talliarthe. Wooden ships do not last centuries of neglect and maintain seaworthy condition. Plus we do not know exactly where she ended up, and Dakar is not much at sailing, although he might have arranged for someone to collect her, sail her down to Innish maybe.
     
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