Published authors and percentage income


You know what a straw man argument is, don't you?

I never argued that folk who pay their mortgage, bills etc through their writing income are not writers. Folk who stick a bad piece of work up for the hell of it are highly unlikely to earn enough to keep body and soul together. Pin money at best for the overwhelming majority of them. Those were the people I was rather obviously talking about.

When did I argue that writing status is conferred by someone on the internet? I argued - quite clearly, I thought - that it came from consensus within the profession.

Regards,

Peter
 
In a business enviroment, sales are everything. My mate Scarfy is knocking out 1200+ a month. How many published authors can say that.

Quite a few. I think GRRM and Brandon Sanderson are selling rather more than 1200 a month, for starters :)

There are big success stories and many, many failures on both sides of the fence - neither route is guaranteed success and profit. I'm not dissing Scarfy's achievement, BTW, merely offering a balanced view of what the average writer can expect.
 
Quite a few. I think GRRM and Brandon Sanderson are selling rather more than 1200 a month, for starters :)

There are big success stories and many, many failures on both sides of the fence - neither route is guaranteed success and profit. I'm not dissing Scarfy's achievement, BTW, merely offering a balanced view of what the average writer can expect.

Everyone on the best seller list like GRRM are prob selling 100k a month. I'm talking about the not so well known authors. I think Ian Whates said one of his books had sold 2000 so far.:)

All I'm trying to say in a balanced way, is don't jump on the bandwagon of knocking self-publishers. There are plenty good ones with appropriate success stories, as there are in traditional publishing.:)

On Scarfy - over 5000 sales in 5 months. let's hear from published authors on their sales figures so we can compare:)
 
If 6-8% of the RRP is the average for a traditional publishing route, then at £7.99 an author is getting 56 pence per book (7%). If an agent takes 10-20% of that, we'll say that's 15% which is 8 pence, leaving the author with 48 pence per sale. Minimum wage for 21 and above in the UK is £6.08. For a 39 hour work week that equates to £12,330 per year. That's 25,668 sales in the year, 2,141 per month, 4940 per week or 70 per day.

Obviously those figures are easier to achieve with multiple books out there and if you're doing it online, you're looking at having to sell less to get more profit, but having less exposure, not being in mainstream book shops. Unless you do an Amanda Hocking, sail the charts for a bit and find your books in high street stores at a point where it has probably become redundant because the internet has given you the exposure you need.
 
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On Scarfy - over 5000 sales in 5 months. let's hear from published authors on their sales figures so we can compare:)

They're probably actually quite comparable, as far as I know.

JJ once said that a novel in the UK that sells less than 3,000 copies is considered a failure. A more realistic view could also be considering Hannu Rajaniemi, who wrote THE QUANTUM THIEF. He sold over 16,000 paperbacks, 1,500 hardbacks, and over 4,00 ebooks.

http://www.johnjarrold.co.uk/news/700/japanese-rights-deal-for-hannu-rajaniemi/

That could be because Hannu's début was highly anticipated and because there was a lot of hype surrounding it (3 book deal made in one afternoon, after reading just one chapter), so perhaps other novels don't sell anywhere near that volume, but it still shows that self publishers have a way to go.
 
Mmm. Perhaps this is one of those questions on which we should agree to differ?

If someone self-publishes and sells 'well', then they are a writer.

If someone gets a conventional publishing deal, they are also a writer.

So where's the line?

I agree with AMB on this one -- if someone writes, then I wouldn't have a problem with them defining themselves as a writer. Although I accept the word has connotations, I think the danger of defining too narrowly is greater than allowing everyone who wants to to define themselves that way.

If someone does not write -- even if they did so in the past with enormous success -- are they still allowed to consider themselves a writer?

And I don't know if everyone who publishes things-I-wouldn't-choose-to-read online necessarily does so cynically. Often, I suspect, they don't see anything wrong with the book. So I am not prepared to say they shouldn't define themselves as writers, just because what they write doesn't conform to the rules. And it makes me uncomfortable when lines are drawn in this way.

(I'm reminded of the Kipling poem with the Devil whispering behind the leaves, "it's pretty, but is it art?")
 
All I'm trying to say in a balanced way, is don't jump on the bandwagon of knocking self-publishers. There are plenty good ones with appropriate success stories, as there are in traditional publishing.:)

I'm not knocking self-publishers - I think they have serious cojones, at least the ones who are taking it seriously and putting effort into making their books as good as anything put out by the big houses.

I just take issue with the implication that higher profit margins on Amazon = bigger bucks than a publishing contract, because that simply isn't true for the vast majority of self-published authors.

On Scarfy - over 5000 sales in 5 months. let's hear from published authors on their sales figures so we can compare:)

I'll be happy to share once I have figures, which won't be for a long time yet. My first book isn't out until early April, so I probably won't have a realistic idea of how it's selling until at least Christmas.
 
Dismissing a body of work just because it doesn't follow your preset beliefs of how something should be done is snobbery.

How about standard rules of grammar and punctuation, before anything else? :)

No one's saying *all* self publishing is bad - we have Mark Robson on the forums who started off with self-publishing, and was so successful that Simon & Schulster signed him up. But he worked hard to be successful with it.

But what most people know is that with self-publishing there are rarely quality assurances in place. Some good works in a sea of sub-standard fare.

As someone once told me, "Everyone has a book inside of them. And for most people, it should stay there." :)
 
Interesting this one, when is a writer not a writer? I left my job in retail one day and called myself a consultant. I had to do a lot of work to bring myself up to the level I needed to be in terms of knowledge but I was happy to take small stuff and build up, plus I did have a modicum of experience in my field.

so, I can spell, I know the basic rules of grammar (still struggle with some but I'm striving to learn them), can I call myself a writer? I tend to tell people who ask I'm trying to write a novel; but at the end of the day where do we set the definition of what a writer is or isn't. A writer is someone who writes, whether for pleasure or profit and if that's what they want to define themselves as its their choice. The good ones will do what I did when I magically became a consultant and work hard to make themselves at least a competent one. The bad ones won't and they won't make any money from it but they can still call themselves a writer. (just not a very good one ;) )
 
Threads like these are why I love Chrons :)

I'll sidestep the whole "when's a writer a writer" debate as it seems entirely subjective to me... :)

As for the potential earnings for trad vs self publishing, well this is a really interesting thread. I plan on submitting at least once more to a trad publisher purely on the basis that... well, I don't know really. Kudos? Glory? Money (in life-changing amounts) appears unlikely either route.

Is it the best business decision? Who knows. I'm going to keep an eye on this thread to find out ;)

I have long been considering self-publishing ebooks of my novels - have been working on various strategies (such as breaking novels into something more episodic, like old-fashioned part-publication/serial/periodicals and 'selling 'em off cheap'). My day job is as a web developer and I have some background in design too, so I'm quite happy amending html for ebook formatting, building and marketing book-related websites, optimising for search etc as well as doing my own covers (I've not been tempted to put a buxom maiden and her muclebound lover on a cover yet, but I hear that stuff sells). I guess Proper editing is the only thing I'm currently lacking (working on the *loose* assumption that my writing is not utter poop).

One thing that holds me back from self-e-pubbing is that I'm not necessarily the most prolific of 'writers' (which seems to me to be key to really breaking ebook sales). Hence the idea to break down into bitesize chunks to sell for less.

To jump on the 'Go Scarfy!' bandwagon, I was browsing Amazon UK's 'Top selling Scifi & Fantasy' lists and saw the first of his ebooks near the top of the 'Free' list and his non-free ebook at least half way up the 'Paid' list (seriously, well done Scarfy). These lists are how I often find myself finding (e)books these days, and that's the kind of marketplace I think a lot of people are going to to do the same.
 
The only difference between a published author and a self-published author is a phone call from an agent.

I'm not committing to either way yet but I think we have to respect the "potentials," out there. After all, the Elton Johns, JK Rowlings and David Beckhams once dreamt of stardom. They got their breaks in life, others aren't so lucky and have to drag it out from the God's using wild horses.

It doesn't make them any worse or better than their peers. Writers are writers - simple as:eek:
 
But everyone who kicks a football around a pitch isn't a footballer.

You can't even say that earning money from your writing makes you a writer because ebook self-publishing has made it so easy to make your illiterate scribblings available to all and sundry - and someone somewhere is going to be daft enough to buy it, even if they did so accidentally.

If there's any distinction, it's that you take writing seriously. You strive to improve your craft. You make a serious effort to widen your audience. You take the time to make sure you're doing it right. You get to know the market and you research it. In other words, you behave like a professional writer.
 
But everyone who kicks a football around a pitch isn't a footballer.

You can't even say that earning money from your writing makes you a writer because ebook self-publishing has made it so easy to make your illiterate scribblings available to all and sundry - and someone somewhere is going to be daft enough to buy it, even if they did so accidentally.

If there's any distinction, it's that you take writing seriously. You strive to improve your craft. You make a serious effort to widen your audience. You take the time to make sure you're doing it right. You get to know the market and you research it. In other words, you behave like a professional writer.

As a possible self-publisher do you not think I know that! I'd have to have half a brain if I didn't. It isn't the exclusive domain of the published to be serious about what they do. All I'm saying is respect the self-publishers for trying.

Some writers will succeed, some wont. It's better to have tried than sit and dream.

I'm I'm not quite sure but did you just call my work, "your illiterate scribblings."

I hope not:)

One thing I will say is the traditionally published books I've read recently were crap with a capital "C" But that's my opinion and as we all know publishing is subjective.
 
Anybody heard Nell Bryden? Opera-trained singer who was seduced by the dark side by listening to Jimi Hendrix; she has the most incredible voice I've ever heard in a female singer. If you find out she's performing near you, and you want to come home with your heart and soul vibrating, go and see her. At the end of her shows she always chats to the fans, signs autographs and sells her own CDs. Incredibly approachable and charisma by the bucketload.

So far, so off-thread, right?

But: there ain't no doubt that she's a singer. Got a record deal, and performs live, and sells records. Except that she sells more CDs at her concerts than her record company does, and mentions this fact.

So: equate this to a person who's spent years honing their craft, (opera training) produces brilliant work which (at the moment) select audiences love, signed by a publisher (the record company) and does the bookstore signings, and incredible self-promotion to sell their books. That person's a writer, no?

So: equate that to a person who's spent years honing their craft, produces brilliant work which (at the moment) select audiences love, but can't get signed by a publisher, but nonetheless self-publishes, does the promotion, the signings and sells books on the net. That person's a writer, no?

So: equate that to a person who's spent months writing a book, which their friends said was great, who ignores advice and critiques given freely by people who know a lot more than this person, whose command of grammar and spelling is poor, whose storyline is indulgent and innacurate, who sells their book on the net. That person's a writer? NO.

I realise this is a polemic argument, because everyone on this thread who is thinking of self-publishing on the net is here because they want their work to be the best it can be, and are prepared to work to get it that way. Gary has summed it up perfectly - he's prepared to do the work (and pay for professional help!) work incredibly hard at his craft, get the best of everything and try to get published. The subjectivity of agents and publisher has already been touched on, and if after all that, there are no deals, that doesn't make it a bad book, far from it.

But the problem is that self-publishing has a bad name because of the thousands who are producing sub-standard work and trying to sell it as a book. That is not snobbish, it's a clear fact. Self-publishers who do it right should be more annoyed by them than published writers, because they're being tarred with the same brush - "all self published books are rubbish". That's akin to saying all soccer fans are thugs, all rugby fans are beer-swilling twits, all Catholic Priests are gay, all politicians are liars (okay, maybe that one...) and so on.

I'd ask this question to everyone: if, after ten years of working on your books, editing, rewriting, recrafting, paying for professional help, improving, improving, improving, and getting close to deals, nothing has happened, wouldn't you consider self-publishing? And how do you feel that after these ten years Gerry Tindkood writes a book in a month and puts it alongside yours, and everyone has no way of equating them?
 
Hi,

Man has this thread taken a sharp left turn. So I think I'll do some sitting on the white centre line here.

When is a writer a writer? I'm afraid it is as simple as when he writes. But there is a caveat as a lot of baggage does come with that term. So to explain a little, to explore the idea, I'd ask the question, was JK a writer while she was sitting in that coffee shop writing her first HP books, long before they were published? To my mind she was. She was committed to her craft. She was writing. That makes her a writer in my book (pun intended).

The problem is that there is no single definition involved in what being a writer is. Peter, you mentioned doctors and lawyers I think. There you're talking about professional qualifications and recognised bodies. Many people want to be doctors and lawyers, a lot of people call themselves as such even when they aren't, and they get caught. But there's no body of authors sitting out there passing judgement on who is or isn't a writer, and nor should there be.

To return to JK, if there had been such a body in place when she was writing but not yet picked up and published, they would have had to have classed her as not a writer. Even though she was writing and committed and her work was at some point prior to being picked up, of a standard. To be more mean again, while she couldn't have been classed as a writer, someone else perhaps going through a creative writing class, even though they hadn't started writing a book or even thought about it, but simply did it for fun, could have been called a writer. How fair would that have been. A best selling author working on her first piece full time wouldn't be a writer, but a qualified person not writing could be one?

Then we can take it one step further. What if JK had published her piece on the kindle (had it been around then). Could we say that she wasn't a writer then? Could we say if it wen't mega in self publishing that she was still not a writer? Or could we say that if it flopped, she wasn't a writer?

So when is a writer a writer? In my opinion when he writes. Yes there is a whole lot of baggage that comes with the term just as there is with doctor and lawyer, but in the end I think, it has to come down to something that simple.

I think for the distinction between good and bad etc, you have to refer to qualifications such as published authors, and successfuly published authors, and maybe even members of particular writing organisations which require standards or sales.

Someone mentioned footballers, and it seems to me to be quite similar. Someone who kicks a ball around at his local club several times a week and trains hard, might be able to call himself a footballer and I don'tthink even though there are loads of connotations that come with the term that I could say he isn't. But its the contract that makes him a professional footballer.

With writers I think there's also a contract which defines them. But it's not the one with the agent or the publisher that really matters here. It's the one a writer has with his readers. It says though its unwritten, I'll write something and you'll like it, and as long as both sides are met, he's a writer and they are readers.

Anyway, just some thoughts. It's breakfast time (coffee time for me).

Cheers, Greg.
 
Threads like these are why I love Chrons :)
I have long been considering self-publishing ebooks of my novels - have been working on various strategies (such as breaking novels into something more episodic, like old-fashioned part-publication/serial/periodicals and 'selling 'em off cheap').

I've read a couple of statements to the effect that eBook buyers tend to prefer full length novels, with the chart toppers tending to be around 100k, and that serialized ones don't do well.

I'm hoping it's wrong, or that it'll change as the possibilities of doing it that way with eBooks will see it become more acceptable, as one of my projects is a series of novelettes (mainly because that's the way the story wanted to go).

I think the comments were more anecdotal than based on significant statistics, but you should check out the success of others at serializing stuff before cutting your story apart.
 
I'd ask this question to everyone: if, after ten years of working on your books, editing, rewriting, recrafting, paying for professional help, improving, improving, improving, and getting close to deals, nothing has happened, wouldn't you consider self-publishing? And how do you feel that after these ten years Gerry Tindkood writes a book in a month and puts it alongside yours, and everyone has no way of equating them?

Very frustrating, and as you say no reward for the work. But, I still think e publishing is the platform we might all need to look at, which makes self publishing easier and cost effective but how do we show quality within that? How do we say actually this author has spent years honing their craft, its really good, I'd reccommend it and this one hasn't. Up until now we've used publishing as the route to quality - a hit and miss route, I grant you - but now it's all up in the air.

hopefully as things settle down the opportunities for the excellent writers, the ones who've paid the piper! improve and open out. I hope so.:)
 

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