INITIATE'S TRIAL: Spoiler Topic (newbiew beware!)

Discussion in 'Janny Wurts' started by Clansman, Dec 9, 2011.

  1. Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    So here it is, the Sword of the Canon: Initiate's Trial spoiler topic, thrown out there for your consideration. If you have not read Initiate's Trial, don't come here. You will spoil your read. I will not post a spoiler in this first post, so that mistakes are not made.

    YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!
     
  2. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Hello everyone, been keeping an eye on this thread since Clansman started it and finally decided to join up. Guess that makes me sort of a newbie. :D

    Naturally there are spoilers....




    I notice we have a thread on Athera's dragons so they seem of interest to some here. What did everyone think of Davien and Seshkrozchiel's creative effort on Kathtairr? I always assumed the dragons had destroyed all life over there, and yet we found out there had been no life there since the dawn of the Age of Dragons. Could it be Ath never created any life there in the first place? The dragons destroyed a place that had conveniently been left unseeded?

    Seshkrozchiel's wrath when she destroyed Avenor seemed to have put a few kinks in Tysans flux lines, the wars over on Kathtairr must have caused a lot more damage. And now not only are the damaged flux lines cleared, but new life is growing over there. Life created by a dragon and the human sorcerer she seems so intrigued by. Could that have been someone's plan all along. Maybe now one dragon seems to have worked out how to create new life, in harmony with Ath's creative efforts, there will be other dragon/sorcerer combinations creating who knows what.

    But the thing that really grabbed my attention was Arithon's reaction to Kathtairr's renewal. The pulse of Tysan might not rise in his blood yet, but Arithon's sensitivity seems to be connecting him very closely to more than just Rathain.
     
  3. Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    Welcome, Aussie500!!! I see that you have introduced yourself good and well.

    You raise some very good points. I think that we can count on the birth (or re-birth?) of life on the Kathtairr continent has huge importance for what is to com in Destiny's Conflict and Song of the Mysteries. I think that Arithon's role as Athera's titled Master Bard, and as the heir to Alithiel, has more to do with the resolution than does his being Tier s'Ffalenn of Rathain.

    The Black Rose Prophecy will be fulfilled, some way, some how, but certainly not in an obvious denouement. Such is not Janny's style.

    I have some thoughts I want to post, but don't have time for more than this right now. I'll be back in a few days.
     
  4. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    And yet none of this could have happened without Arithon's crown attunement to the land of Rathain. Janny has shown us how both initiate talent and crown attunement can work. In Tysan even though Arithon could see the problem with the flux lines, he knew he could not use his talent for music to heal the problem, not in Tysan.

    Arithon felt what was happening to Kathtairr, he was not just reacting to the shockwave the event caused, he was physically feeling what was happening on the other side of the planet. It was more like a Crown attunement. Arithon's awarness was no where near that sensitive when he was exploring Kathtairr, he never had his mage powers back then so how could that have happened? How is it Arithon could feel the change in Kathtairr's 'song' yet not Tysans which he was standing on? Athera's resonance was raised by the events happening on Kathtairr, and it seems it also increased Arithon's awareness. Look at what happened when he first tried to help Taren's, when previously lost in wild flux, Arithon's attunement tied him to Rathain, now he seems to be feeling what Athera herself is feeling.

    Maybe for the Black Rose prophecy to be fulfilled Arithon does not need to accept kingship, at the rate he is going he will not need any sorcerer to give him the remaining attunements. As his power increases, he might simply claim them, and not just the attunements to Rathain, the attunments for all of Athera, and for all four elements. Arithon is already heir to Rathain, three kingdoms are without a sanctioned heir, and Arithon already has blood ties to two of them, Havish will shortly have a new queen which might complicate things, or maybe not. If Arithon does gain all the attunements he would then probably have everything needed to take charge of that earth link from Sethvir, although he would need permission for that. Arithon would need permission from the Paravians, so would need to complete any requirments needed for the Paravians to return. Presumably around then someone is going to admit why the fellowship were so keen to crown him, by telling Arithon about the Black Rose prophecy.
     
  5. dekket

    dekket Well-Known Member

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    I think it was in Fugitive Prince that we were told that the dragons had destroyed all life over in Kathtairr, making it a barren wasteland in their battles at the beginning of the age of dragon. Dakar informed Arithon that Paravians had never trode those shores made desolate by the fires of the great drakes (or something to that effect). So Davien and Seshkrozchiel's creative effort on Kathtairr would indeed be a rebirth (of such epic proportions as to alter the magnetic flux of the entire planet).

    I am still trying to get my head around if the flux lines have physically shifted location (ie moved east or west), or whether it is more along the lines of a frequency shift, and they are much more evident now than what they used to be (and more people can now sense the existence of the lines). Hopefully it will become more clear in future re-reads.
     
  6. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    First part of this year was filled with stuff that kept me away from my reading, but I have finished Initiate's Trial and so can finally look at this thread. ;)

    I would have to go with the latter, dek. I see "....every lane that channeled the planet's electromagnetics pulsed with reverberation...", and while Davien talks about upshifts to frequency, I didn't see anywhere that the lanes actually moved or otherwise changed. You're right, though; it might be too soon to tell.
     
  7. Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    Grimward! Welcome back to the boards, old friend.

    Long since time we heard your 12 string to go with some good whisky and better company!
     
  8. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    Aye, thank you Clanny.

    12 string needs new strings (wouldn't want to upset the lanes with the tired dull things that are on there now). Soon.

    In the meanwhile, might I add that I LIKE Daliana. Great addition. Not sure about Tarens yet, although I thought the way it (am I the only one who likes the fact that I can say "it" and not be vague in this thread? ;)) started was a great change.
     
  9. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Did anyone get the strange idea that Tarens with his upright morals, loyalty, tenacity and caring seemed a bit like what Lysaer could have been like if he had not been born royal and not cursed? Now I doubt Lysaer would ever make a good crofter, And Tarens is not going to win any beauty pageants but still there seemed some similarities. Two bright sunny spirits if one had no been blighted early.
     
  10. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    Aye, although it was the "common man" in him that registered first with me; the similarities to Lysaer's original nature didn't occur in my cranium until later. And where Lysaer un-possessed by Deshtheire skews toward justice (indeed, his s'Lessid blood leaving him little choice in the matter), Tarens seems to skew toward fairness. I think that's a small but important distinction.;)
     
  11. dekket

    dekket Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed Tarens interaction with the clanborn children/youths.
     
  12. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    I think those three might take exception to being called children. It will be interesting to see what the older s'Valerient's make of Tarens. Will he get accepted, or will they give him the brush off. Arithon is going to have reason enough to be wary of his own clansmen, maybe they give him more reason not to want to accept their oath of fealty. He does not seem to want any innocents getting in the way this time, does not want anyone dying for him. Would he accept an oath of fealty?

    Janny has also put a few ideas out about how a caithdein might depose a sanctioned king or prince. Maybe Arithon wants to be disowned, or maybe fate has something else in mind. I would speculate on that but it seems to upset some so I will wait and see. Janny already seems to have set Arithon up for a horrific trail of endurance, maybe she would not be that mean to him. But you have to wander about why she expanded on the idea. Those threads usually lead somewhere.
     
  13. Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    The Paravians do not survive unless Dakar's Black Rose Prophecy comes to fruition:

    Davien the Betrayer shall hear no reason, nor bow to the Law of the Major Balance; neither shall the Fellowship be restored to Seven until the black rose grows wild in the vales of Daon Ramon.1


    At some point, for that BRP to happen, Arithon must accept the mantle of kingship. So being deposed by the cathdein does not seem likely.

    However, just what does "the mantle of Kingship" mean?
     
  14. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Actually the Black Rose prophecy says nothing about Paravians, they are surviving just fine with the Fellowship as they are. If Arithon accepts kingship of any mortal enclave, the compact continues and the Paravians return. That would also need enough of the clans to suvive in order to uphold their part in maintaining the free wilds. Arithon's talents are probably better used elsewhere. And keeping the clans isolated from the townspeople has not worked out that well. Paravian survival when the strands were cast was not dependent on Arithon accepting kingship. The Fellowship were willing to release Arithon from kingship before they heard that Black Rose prophecy. Arithon assumed their survival was dependent on him accepting kingship, the Asandir let him think that.


    If you read back through the bits concerning Daviens reasons for what he did, the rebellion, and what Arithon and Davien both want, you will see Davien never intended Arithon to accept kingship of Rathain, he has something else in mind. There were problems with the compact that have been mentioned in the books, it is basically unstable since it is widening the differences between the clans and the townspeople, creating two groups with completely different ideas of what should and should not be done with Athera. The Fellowship knew there was a strong chance humanity would eventually break the compact. Davien was working on an alternative solution. King Kamridian died, and Davien stirs up a rebellion to topple the kingships, maybe kingship was the reason why Kamridian failed.

    The Black Rose prophecy says when Arithon is willing to embrace kingship, says nothing about him actually needing to be crowned for the Fellowship to be reunited. Twice so far Arithon has agreed to accept kingship, twice something has happened to prevent it, something is likely to be appearing out of thin air when Arithon volunteers again after things have settled down.

    And Davien's words on the matter were.
    If you look at how Arithons's talents have been developing, and that Davien probably wants his freedom from that compact. It seems likely Arithon will be taking over the earthlink from Sethvir. Although Athera might not be the wisdom in that quote. But by the end of Destiny's Conflict Arithon would have mastered his rebellion, maybe accepting guardianship of Athera and the earth link is what Davien is refering to, maybe that is the alternate plan. He marries part of Athera by accepting kingship of Rathain, what does he get if he accepts the earth link?
    Of course I could be wrong, but who else can take over the earth link if the Fellowship are freed and decide to leave Athera? Arithon has a bit more to do before he is ready, but tackling that mistwraith in Rockfell should go a long way to achieving it.

    Which brings us back to the original point. If Arithon as a sanctioned crown prince is still tied to Rathain, does that affect things. As a royal trying to avoid kingship, does he need to be freed of that destiny before he dies. Or does dying free him of it? Even if he could get the rest of the attunements, without Fellowship help, he has no blood inheritance for Havish or Tysan. Now there might be some strange tie to Lysaer we have not unraveled. Tarens might be a missing link. And Elaira could be headed for an impressionable encounter with the coronation of Havish's queen. But none of that seems likely to help if Arithon needs something to change before he dies and wanders off where ever he is going.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  15. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    Or there is another sneaky possibility. Maybe in order to survive the impossible, Arithon will finally be forced to embrace the full reach and strength of his power. When Jieret was talking about a s'Ffalenn accepting his coronation in Fugitive Prince, was not Arithon's reply “Let me be dead, first!”

    Maybe you have to kill him to get him to finally embrace it!
     
  16. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    How about either of these scandalous possibilities:

    1. The Fellowship is restored, and to 7, but not the original 7; or

    2. The Black Rose prophesy is not realized, but neither do the Koriathain prevail.

    Janny's got a better breaking ball than Stephen Strasburg when it comes to flipping us on our collective head. Why should we expect the "happy" (lacking a better word for it) ending?
     
  17. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    1. Is out of the question, Janny already explained why there can never be any additions to the Fellowship, it has to be the original 7. Their tragic past made them a Fellowship, the dream of the dragons called them to Athera and made them what they are and only the originals can be reunited. Their responsibilities, bindings and powers cannot be passed onto anyone else, there can be no new Fellowship members. Would not be that hard to wake Ciladis after the conflict is settled, and all Davien wants it seems is for Arithon to live out his life and die of old age of natural causes. Most likely Arithon survives the next book Davien will be content he was proven right and rejoin the other six. No big ask that one, the fact most of Paravia wants Arithon dead should only require a few miracles for him to survive.

    If any of Athera's born talent ends up forming new groups to help protect Athera and guide humanity, I would expect them to think up some new names, not that the Koriathain is not a very suitable name, but maybe a new prime would want a fresh start. If Dakar gets to name an initiate mage group, who knows what they would be called, not sure I would trust him to name anything.



    2. Who knows, the source is infallible, but the prophecy came in two parts and is a bit vague. I doubt the prophecy would have been given if it would not be fulfilled, it is not a prophecy if it is not. But it might not end up what we expect it to be. The Koriathain question would depending on how you interpret them prevailing.

    Pretty sure we get the happy uplifting ending. All these helping hands (eyes, ears, voices and whatever else is being used), prophecies and mystical entities seem to know what they are trying to achieve, even if we are still clueless.
     
  18. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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  19. Grimward

    Grimward Where matter vanishes...

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    Re #1, I thought the premise had issues, too, but I have learned not to use the word 'Never' where Janny's stuff is concerned. You're right, though; she did explain that the Fellowship membership was pretty much cast in stone (we'll set the classical "woman's prerogative" aside here for the time being ;) ).

    Well, let's see; Sorceror's Legacy didn't end like I expected it to, The Cycle of Fire didn't either, other than believing they'd make it out I had NO idea where Hell's Chasm was going, and I blame the easier-to-forecast ending of the Empire series on Feist! Convenient, no? :p

    Seriously, I'm still not sold on "Happy", but I can live with "uplifting".
     
  20. aussie500

    aussie500 Well-Known Member

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    How about a bit of insightful character analysis? Or character assassination perhaps. I am pretty sure Janny always wanted us to discuss the little snippets she added to give us a peak at some things, but never saw anyone have a go at it. Selidie's ones in Initiate's Trial were a lot more obvious, and a lot more fun considering they are getting so obvious, she seems to be more than a bit insane. But certainly Lysaer in his cursed heyday had some very interesting ones. Other characters with a clearer vision gave us accurate ones, those with talent who were lead astray by hatred or some other madness were still insightful, but around the wrong way.

    Selidie talking to Asandir, I am thinking Selidie had a LOT of sleepless nights.

    Selidie and Asandir again, Asandir's reply made it obvious who's strategies went wrong. You go back through all the books and look for the little insights, you might discover a few different angles you missed.

    One of Morriel's from CotM
    This one likely still has a few angles and interpretations to be discovered still, but reading Inititiate's Trial there is an obvious one. When we originally read that remark we were probably thinking how wrong Morriel was, Arithon is no abomination, and yet look how it turned out. As Morriel/Selidie got more and more desperate certainly she made a lot of unconscionable reckless attacks on both Athera and Arithon, and who ended up being the abomination?

    The Koriathain were responsible for the necromancy problem anyway so they certainly loosed that one on Athera.
     
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