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Writing Horses in Fantasy: How Authentic Should You Be?

I try to realize this in my head, and can't fathom how a horse can only go 30 miles in a day. I figured a full days travel, not full out would get more than 30 miles. I'm also not a horse though. I assumed a moderate pace of 8 miles per hour, breaking several times throughout the day could at least get 50 miles over 10 hours. I also assumed my horses were trained messenger horses so they could make it.

I thought 80 was on the high side, but not that high. All in all a good thread to have here, because I definitely have horses in my story (not a ton, but they are there), and they do quite a bit of traveling, and I prefer to be believable. Guess I should hit the books again.
 
Uh, yeah, Phoenix, there is no way a horse can actually travel eighty miles a day. You MIGHT manage I think, thirty. And never at full speed for very long. What happens if you run a horse hard for too long a period is what is known as "breaking their wind" in which they have to breathe too hard and their lungs get damaged. When that happens, nothing can really be done but to put them down.

Indeed, 80 miles a day is impossible unless you are constantly changing horses at way stations along the route. Whoever thinks the horse is an unflagging machine is caught in the Hollywood "hi-yo Silver away" stereotype. Look at it this way: how far can you, in decent shoes and comfortable clothes, with no pack, walk in a day? How long can you keep going before your feet and ankles and knees (and back) start to scream? Now, how far can you go with a 50-lb pack? 60? A hundred? Nowhere near as far, and nowhere near as long, I'm betting. The horse packing 200 pounds on average (rider + saddle + gear) is doing so on muscles and backbone that get bloody sore (and bloody and sore) even if the horse is fit if the distance is too long and the weight too much. It also has to eat. It takes a horse on really good grass about an hour to tank up twice a day, 2 or more if the pickings are slim. If the grass hasn't much feed value the horse will lose condition pretty fast and can't go as far either. NO way can he do 80 miles a day. 30 is pushing hard, and that's not stopping much to rest the poor beast or allowing those 2-4 hours a day to graze. The US Cavalry manual (1862 version) mandates 10 minutes halt every hour on the march to get off, rest the horse's back and check for sores, check cinches, etc. This was a relatively enlightened era for horsemanship. In earlier times the horses weren't so lucky.

There's a reason, aside from expense, why infantry was more common than cavalry. The logistics are just ever so much simpler.

Forced marches of 60-80 miles in 24 hours leave strings of dead and lame and permanently unfit horses behind. And they don't continue for days and days. Nathan Bedford Forrest pulled one of these during the American Civil War to run down a fleeing enemy and left hundreds of foundered horses in his wake (and men).

Either adjust your mileages downward, or make your road system advanced enough for fast-moving travelers to be able to change mounts frequently if they need to travel far and fast overland.
 
Well... They are Priests, gifted with blessings and holy enchantments. I could probably work a blessing into the story to make it feasible as I have done with other aspects of the Priest order. I really need the distance traveled to work out in order for the story to make sense.

Luckily my other group who considered taking horses over an 800 mile jaunt the long way across the landscape are using other means. A piece I'm actually very excited to start writing.
 
Be careful with magical answers to problems; it always works well to have a very strict magical code for your magic in a story and to stick to it (even if you don't reveal the whole of the code to the reader you yourself need to have it as a backbone to work from).
Otherwise you can fast fall into the trap of having magical powers that don't seem to add up right to the reader and that quickly start to feel like they are being used as a writers crutch; ie each time a problem with the story arises where characters or real world limits would prevent things happening, magic jumps in to solve the problem. This can work a few times very well, but so long as there is structure and enough structure that the reader can see and understand -- essentially to see that it has its limits and restrictions.
 
Well... They are Priests, gifted with blessings and holy enchantments. I could probably work a blessing into the story to make it feasible as I have done with other aspects of the Priest order. I really need the distance traveled to work out in order for the story to make sense.


That's taking the easy way out, Phoenix. Magic is not meant to be the answer to everything.


Horses are actually usually used at a fairly slow pace and only in bursts of speed when the situation calls for it. If they need to break through a hundred-yard ambush area, then yeah, a bit of a run might not be taxing them too heavily. But if I am thinking correctly, horses are used at a speed that does not go much faster than a person walking. You also have to take into consideration, the landscape. Unless they're going over an eight-hundred mile salt flat deserts, there are going to be small bumps, rises, and dips in the way, something that a horse could go lame on with the wrong step. I usually just forgo the transportation in general and have my characters just use their own two feet. Nobody can judge one's endurance better than themselves and they know when to stop for the night. Then again, I never usually have them actually running away from something, either.
 
You could create a new breed of horse or means of animal transportation on your world that was bred to travel in just the way you need it to.
 
You could create a new breed of horse or means of animal transportation on your world that was bred to travel in just the way you need it to.


Again, just coming up with this sort of thing willy-nilly without a detailed background history of evolution on said world is just a cop out, considering this to be a world to support human life, atmospheric conditions would have to be very similar to Earth and as a result, the planet would have had to evolve in a similar way. You might get away with such a thing if you introduce genetic engineering, or perhaps have it so certain ancient species never got wiped out.
 
Again, just coming up with this sort of thing willy-nilly without a detailed background history of evolution on said world is just a cop out, considering this to be a world to support human life, atmospheric conditions would have to be very similar to Earth and as a result, the planet would have had to evolve in a similar way. You might get away with such a thing if you introduce genetic engineering, or perhaps have it so certain ancient species never got wiped out.

Well I did assume the person asking could find away to make it explainable in the context of their own world. There are a universe of what ifs. What if there wasn't mass extinction during the Permian era or the dinosaurs didn't become extinct. Maybe the beasts used are closer to camels or some other creature or maybe they have been bred with centaurs or some other mythical/fantastical beast etc
 
Phoenix, you know what you want for your story and as you write it, you'll get to know what's working for you and what's not. At the same time...

This is kind of echoing what others have said, but magic is a bit like science - it has to have rules. You can go down the magic horse route a la Krull, but even then, you need to keep a consistency in how the magic works and have an explanation as to why there are magic horses. The problem that you could face with magic horses is that if they're horses in every respect other than that they can travel further/faster, it can look as if you're just using magic as a get out clause to explain any inconsistency.

Changing horses regularly will speed a journey, but requires money to pay the changing stations, sometimes a lot of money.

One other thing that you might want to bear in mind is the cumulative effect of the journey. A horse might be able to travel thirty miles in a day, depending on health, terrain, speed, weight being carried, etc., but it can't do that day in, day out. Horses need days off, too.

Likewise, if you're riding hard, you're going to get sore. Ride for a few days, you're going to walk like Roy Rogers. So you might need some magic ointment in the mix.:D

At the end of the day, just, as you say, do your best to do your best. Good luck.:)
 
Thanks. I know this thread was not designed so I could jump in and hi-jack it with my nonsense, but just the same, it's helped me keep straight.

The novel is rounding 80k words as I write this, and that's not too far into it to not be able to make changes. My timeline is a bit compact. When I first wrote this it was perhaps two or three weeks from start to finish. But, if I'm to actually create a world where the tomb of this deity is several hundreds of miles away, I'll have to rework my timeline to fit the ability to journey that far. In the end that can only be a good thing because it will make sense, I only fear my other characters in other parts of the world will be basically sitting around doing absolutely nothing while So-n-So is traveling across the globe.

This has really got me thinking, in a good way, how to take this issue into consideration.
 
Thanks. I know this thread was not designed so I could jump in and hi-jack it with my nonsense, but just the same, it's helped me keep straight.

This has really got me thinking, in a good way, how to take this issue into consideration.

Phoenix, this is exactly why I started this thread, actually. The discussion has been great, and has clearly helped you dig deeper into your world and make it more plausible. Authenticity can only help your writing and your worldbuilding and prevent the eye-rolling of readers who can spot fudging on the part of the writer ten miles off. You got great advice from several people about not waving a magic wand and making the impossible happen with regard to your critters' endurance and speed. In my experience, rethinking the plot is always a much better option than trying to force the world to do what you need it to, rather than forcing your plot to conform to the rules of the world. If this discussion helped, then I'm doing a happy dance for you!
 
For anyone interested, there are new posts on this topic on the original blog that got it going. The latest is on warhorses. Yeah, it's my blog, but this isn't a plug, as I am genuinely interested in helping people write more authentic equines
 
Hi Sabolich

Do you roll your eyes when you see stupid mistakes of authenticity, or do you just let it go on by if it's peripheral to the action?
I've only read your OP in this thread, so apologies if I am repeating what comes after.

Authenticity is good, but mistakes and misunderstandings are inevitable and can, I think, be forgiven. To use your example, horses in fantasy stories often seem to be able to go at full tilt for hours on end. I suspect - and you will know either way - that this is probably not possible, but it's such a "given" that the reader - who, by and large, knows little about horses anyway - will keep reading. Fantasy horses will also happily charge headlong into bodies of spear waving infantry which, again, I understand to be something real horses will usually wish to avoid.

The purpose of authenticity is to shore up the willing suspension of disbelief. As such, you don't need to be an expert on horses to write about them - doing a tiny bit of research so you know just a bit more than the average reader will be enough most of the time.

It would, of course, be different if the horse was a main character (!).

The downside of getting too technical about horses is that you are setting up your narrative voice as being a Bit Of An Authority and you will probably have to maintain similar levels of knowledge about boats, carts, trades, industry, medieval towns, medieval government, music, poetry, warfare, religion and superstition. Otherwise, your reader may feel rather let down when you move on from horses to discuss something they know more about than you. No point having your beautifully real horses turning up at yet another fantasy pastiche "tavern" or castle.

Regards,

Peter
 
Authenticity is good, but mistakes and misunderstandings are inevitable and can, I think, be forgiven. To use your example, horses in fantasy stories often seem to be able to go at full tilt for hours on end. I suspect - and you will know either way - that this is probably not possible, but it's such a "given" that the reader - who, by and large, knows little about horses anyway - will keep reading. Fantasy horses will also happily charge headlong into bodies of spear waving infantry which, again, I understand to be something real horses will usually wish to avoid.

Hi, Peter,

I think we must agree to disagree here. Perpetuating a falsehood or a stereotype simply because people "know" it to be true and expect it is how we end up with generations of ignorant people. I have personally witnessed horses abused and hurt because of dimwits who assumed what they saw on TV was how "real horsemen" ride or treat their animals. Sometimes the people get hurt, too, and can't figure out what happened. This is how history gets distorted and lies become truth. Writers owe it to their readers to do more than surface skimming on Wikipedia to get their facts straight.

The purpose of authenticity is to shore up the willing suspension of disbelief. As such, you don't need to be an expert on horses to write about them - doing a tiny bit of research so you know just a bit more than the average reader will be enough most of the time.

Not to quibble, but what do you consider "a tiny bit of research" and what do you consider adequate? Watching a TV show or relying on a novel you admire, written by someone of unknown qualifications? Going out and sitting on a horse once at a riding stable? Reading a quick beginners' manual on the subject?

The downside of getting too technical about horses is that you are setting up your narrative voice as being a Bit Of An Authority and you will probably have to maintain similar levels of knowledge about boats, carts, trades, industry, medieval towns, medieval government, music, poetry, warfare, religion and superstition.

I can't believe that any credible writer would incorporate elements about which he/she knows nothing, expecting the reader to swallow it whole. Nothing goes into my books that doesn't come from personal experience or extensive research, precisely so I don't sound like an idiot. I avoid putting my characters in situations where I can't bring that level of authenticity, likes boats, about which I know nothing. In a historical setting, I research every detail down to the type of bristles on a hairbrush. Otherwise, it's just lazy, and putting a lot of bad information out into an ocean already full of it. Really good fiction is painless education as well as entertainment. Skimping on the research is just...wrong.

Otherwise, your reader may feel rather let down when you move on from horses to discuss something they know more about than you. No point having your beautifully real horses turning up at yet another fantasy pastiche "tavern" or castle.

Sorry, but in my opinion, what you've laid out here is the perfect formula for bland, lookalike fantasy that depends on the reader's built-in assumptions to fill in the blanks in worldbuilding. While a lot of readers may not care, tons of them do, and will shun this type of book for fantasy that evokes not only an original, fully realized world, but one that you instinctively recognize is founded on solid knowledge, not airy bits of fluff pulled in without real understanding of How Things Work.

Hmm. If this sounds like a rant, sorry. It's not intended to be. And it doesn't apply just to horses, but to every single thing you choose to incorporate into your fantasy world.

Thanks for the reply. Others may have a totally different view. That's what discussion forums are for!
 
Hi Sabolich,

I think we must agree to disagree here. Perpetuating a falsehood or a stereotype simply because people "know" it to be true and expect it is how we end up with generations of ignorant people

True - but you are writing a fantasy novel, not academic non-fiction. Your "duty" (insofar as you have one at all) is to entertain.

. I have personally witnessed horses abused and hurt because of dimwits who assumed what they saw on TV was how "real horsemen" ride or treat their animals.

I don't doubt it. But again, if you wish to save horses from ill treatment (a laudable ambition, I hasten to add), writing a fantasy novel in which horses are treated well is not the best way to go about it. The problem you will experience is that not every reader will realise that a) you are a bit of an expert on horses and b) what you are saying should be remembered and adhered to. The horses are likely to be part of the backdrop. How the horses are treated will not - should not - be the thing which readers take away from the book.


Writers owe it to their readers to do more than surface skimming on Wikipedia to get their facts straight.

I disagree. Fiction writers are entertainers, not teachers.



Not to quibble, but what do you consider "a tiny bit of research" and what do you consider adequate?

There's no short answer to this, but I suppose I could sum it up as "enough to encourage the willing suspension of disbelief in the reader." What is most important in a work of fiction is the story. Everything else -- the plot, the backdrop, the narrative voice etc. - is there to add something to the story.

Take Tolkien. His depth of imagination is beyond compare, as is his knowledge of linguistics and poetry. But what he knows about geography, geology, social development and how technology was used could be written on the back of an envelope. But it doesn't matter, because although his story is full of little holes, it is easily strong enough to ensure the suspension of disbelief.

I can't believe that any credible writer would incorporate elements about which he/she knows nothing, expecting the reader to swallow it whole.

You obviously haven't read much genre fantasy then. The popular, quasi-European medieval background which sits behind so many fantasy works is, in historical terms, little more than pastiche.


Nothing goes into my books that doesn't come from personal experience or extensive research,

This is also laudable, but it presumably means that either a) your books focus on what you already know very well or b) it must take you a very long time to write each book due to the sheer volume of research you will have to do to make every detail right. And even then, you won't be anything close to an expert in all of these different areas - you'll still be dropping enormous clangers left, right and centre.

And this is my point. We all have our areas of interest. I know lots about early medieval history. Every time I read a book set in this period, the mistakes bounce out like tennis balls. But so what? I'm reading for the story. As long as we don't have armoured knights with kalasnikovs, I'll let it go. I want to suspend my disbelief and enjoy a good yarn.


While a lot of readers may not care, tons of them do, and will shun this type of book for fantasy that evokes not only an original, fully realized world, but one that you instinctively recognize is founded on solid knowledge, not airy bits of fluff pulled in without real understanding of How Things Work.

That's only a fair point if the world really is based on "solid knowledge" - and like I say, it takes more than reading a few books to provide genuine solidity.


Hmm. If this sounds like a rant, sorry.

Not at all - you make some excellent points and I am very happy to debate them with you.

Regards,

Peter
 
I gotta agree with Peter on this one. The whole "write what you know" bit is great and all, in theory...but, really, who wants to read about sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day and then coming home to watch some TV? Because that's what I know best.

It's fantasy fiction. People don't pick it up for an accurate depiction of life in a pseudo-medieval European world. They read it to enjoy themselves. In my opinion, the whole fun of writing fantasy is what we don't know.
 
Heh. See, this is why I asked the question originally. Clearly there is a wide range of what readers/writers accept and do with regard to backgrounds and authenticity. I personally will chuck a book across the room because the worldbuilding is unbearably stupid. I don't care how good the characters are. Worldbuilding is such a huge part of story, or should be, that it bugs me a lot when it's unsupportable in any reality.

What you know informs what you write, but certainly isn't the only thing you can write about. My point is, you don't have to go create a whole new language like Tolkien, but if you're making up words and names you should have a good idea of how languages work. He was a language expert and did it for fun, and it is undeniable that his expertise lends LOTR a layer of something extra. Most really memorable fantasies have at least one thing that stands out for them that is usually founded in the author's expertise at *something*. That one thing that makes it different is often what gets it published.

Peter, you said, "The popular, quasi-European medieval background which sits behind so many fantasy works is, in historical terms, little more than pastiche." That is, unfortunately, true, and contributes to a complaint I actually hear a lot at conventions and from industry insiders--that everything on the shelves is beginning to look alike. Perhaps my tastes have been jaded over the years because a) I have read a LOT of fantasy and b) I've workshopped for years, working with many beginning writers who clearly have swallowed all the stereotypes whole and never, EVER do a lick of research. I find myself buying less fantasy because it does look alike, and the beginners keep lifting big elements out of it--and doing it worse. There is often nothing plausible about their worlds, which, unfortunately, as you've noted, often applies to published work as well. The story does not always carry these books well enough to make me swallow the poor worldbuilding. And you can and do lose whole chunks of an audience that way. A friend of mine recounted her reaction (and that of most of her friends) to a historical novel set in her home state of Hawaii, wherein the author named her Hawaiin princess something that had an "R" in it. There is no R in the Hawaiin language. I guess it just sounded good to her. That book never made it out of the store, let alone into the hands of people who might have enjoyed and recommended the story. Research does count.

Peter said, "...presumably either a) your books focus on what you already know very well or b) it must take you a very long time to write each book due to the sheer volume of research you will have to do to make every detail right. And even then, you won't be anything close to an expert in all of these different areas - you'll still be dropping enormous clangers left, right and centre."

Eh, no. I have a degree in history and a broad background in a lot of areas from life experience that I call on, and what I don't know I research. I cut down the time involved by choosing situations and world settings that complement what I know and digging in where I need to. I can paddle a canoe but not sail a boat. If I had to transport my characters by water they would go as passengers or in some conveyance I feel confident writing about. I would construct my plot in a manner that doesn't thrust them into having to sail the thing; or, if it was unavoidable, I would make them as inept as I would be...or, I would go and take sailing lessons to learn enough to make their managing the thing plausible. The point is to understand what you're writing, not just stick stuff in and hope it's good enough to pass muster. Clearly a lot of readers don't care. A lot of us do.

About the armored knights with Kalashnikovs? Since I write alternate history sometimes, bring it on! But it would have to have a thoroughly plausible reason for how the knights got the guns. :)

For me, yeah, fantasy is fantasy, and you can make up a lot of interesting stuff--so long as it has a logical, coherent underlying structure. And that usually comes from understanding how the pieces fit together--like how your medieval kingdom came to have paved roads, "bales" of hay, and flush toilets. Tripping over that kind of stuff (yeah, I've seen all of those in manuscripts for critique) makes me giggle but also makes me sad for the sheer ignorance of the writer who assumes that stuff just appears from nowhere with no technological foundation for it.

If you look up some of the many, and hysterically funny, lists of fantasy stereotypes, you'll find I'm not the only one who is kinda tired of the cliches and skimpy worldbuilding in fantasy.

Okay, I'm done. It's been fun batting this back and forth!
 
I gotta agree with Peter on this one. The whole "write what you know" bit is great and all, in theory...but, really, who wants to read about sitting in front of a computer 8 hours a day and then coming home to watch some TV? Because that's what I know best.

I actually helped a friend edit a story that began exactly that way. It didnt stay in that world long, true. But that doesnt make it an invalid setting, or the knowledge gained in it valueless.
 
Hi Sabolich

I personally will chuck a book across the room because the worldbuilding is unbearably stupid.

OK - in that case, I have a question. We have both mentioned dear JRRT, so did you chuck The Lord of the Rings across the room? I'm guessing that you did not. But perhaps on your arguments you should have done, because his world makes no sense. Hobbits living an early 20th Century Edwardian life (even down to the pocket handkerchiefs and waistcoats) in an otherwise 12th century world; the obvious issues with inbreeding in the Breeland; the moral absolutism that allows peoples to be entirely evil or entirely good in nature; the complete impossibility of Sauron keeping his enormous armies fed and watered (irrespective of sad seas of Nurnen); the geology and landscape features of Mordor etc etc.

Put simply, the worldbuilding is riddled with holes wide enough to get a bus through. Sideways. Yet LOTR is quite rightly regarded as one of the greatest works of 20th century fiction. Why? Because the story is so good that the vast majority of readers will happily suspend their disbelief. They neither know nor care about unsustainable gene pools in the Chetwood any more than you do.

This, I think, is the rub. There is no point taking sailing lessons so that you can discourse about reefing, tacking or topping blocks (not least because modern sailing boats aren't rigged or built like medieval ones) if you are going to allow Tolkienesque howlers to get through unchallenged.

It's not enough to have a history degree. That won't help you with geography, geology, astronomy, physics, chemistry and it may not even help you with a lot of history - if the US is like the UK in this regard, history degrees are highly specialist. Folk tend to study the socio-political situation of a very limited number of periods in a very limited number of places and not learn about how peasants brewed beer or skinned rabbits or how it felt to clank around Bosworth Field in a suit of armour for a few hours.

I don't care how good the characters are.

I do care. Fiction is storytellling. Stories are about people. A story which is not about people (or which does not have anthropomorhism or human interest before anyone mentions Watership Down) might as well be an instruction manual for a dishwasher. Ultimately, a credible world with weak characters will be less appealing to most readers than a weak world with credible characters. Tolkien is proof of that.



I find myself buying less fantasy because it does look alike

I agree here. I rarely read it at all, although when it's good - The Once and Future King springs to mind - it's very good.


The story does not always carry these books well enough to make me swallow the poor worldbuilding

I agree. But that is because the story is too weak. A weak story in a weak world will excite no-one. By contrast, a strong story in a strong world should do rather well. I don't dispute that worldbuilding is relevant. But I dispute that worldbuilding must reek of verisimilitude at every turn in order to satisfy the average reader. When reading fiction, I want to escape the real world. I want to see Aragorn battling orcs, not sitting down to do his tax return. I also worry that those who concentrate so much on worldbuilding may risk not concentrating enough on story and character.

A friend of mine recounted her reaction (and that of most of her friends) to a historical novel set in her home state of Hawaii, wherein the author named her Hawaiin princess something that had an "R" in it

That's a personal thing. It wouldn't bother me. One of my favourite films is Withnail & I. Part of the film is set in Cumbria. For some reason, the Cumbrian characters all speak with Yorkshire accents. But so what? Doesn't make the film any less funny or the story any less poignant. It takes precisely nothing away from my enjoyment of the film and I'd wager that most people would feel just the same way as me.



If I had to transport my characters by water they would go as passengers or in some conveyance I feel confident writing about

We're back to my point about taking the same care over your characters as your world. Without wishing to sound trite, I assume that you don't feel it necessary to spend a few months learning how to become a knight errant, or a swineherd, or a courtly lady, or an innkeeper, before writing your characters. Writers need to look at the bigger picture if they wish to appeal to the largest possible audience.


If you look up some of the many, and hysterically funny, lists of fantasy stereotypes, you'll find I'm not the only one who is kinda tired of the cliches and skimpy worldbuilding in fantasy.

I suspect you will find that the stereotypes relate more to stock characters (in other words, people) than to common mistakes in depicting horse riding or planting barley!

Regards,

Peter
 
Otherwise, your reader may feel rather let down when you move on from horses to discuss something they know more about than you. No point having your beautifully real horses turning up at yet another fantasy pastiche "tavern" or castle.

That makes perfect sense to me. The end result is surely that you need enough detail to make it seem viable - and no more. That may involve cutting out research, but if the story requires it, then fair enough. A sentence like "They stopped early to rest their horses" can be enough depending on the circumstances. In a story about a journey, or in a scene set in a farrier's yard, it clearly isn't.

Was it Mark Twain who said "crass stupidities should not be played out on the reader"? That to me is the bedrock standard. Anything can be done so long as the effect is not to boot the reasonably intelligent, reasonably knowledgable reader out of the book. I think you have to accept that you will occasionally get an expert who knows more than you do. That's why I don't go into the details of physics in space - the fact that there's no sound and you can't fly just like an aeroplane will hopefully do the job, and if anyone does object, I hope the other elements of the story will compensate.
 

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