How to make Martial Arts Credible in Fantasy Setting?

[Brian G Turner]

That's a very interesting and derogatory tone you got there Stephen.

Easy with the attitude, please - you're the only one with an obvious derogatory tone on this thread, thanks. Chill.

It's a bit more of an open question whether Western martial arts were well enough developed to give the user much of a chance against an armoured knight, however.

In the Ringeck book I linked to before, there are 4 sections - one is normal "wrestling", and another is "armoured wrestling".

However, what the book calls "wrestling" looks more like outright martial arts, not least the throws and disarming moves. There also appears to have been a sanctioned "fighting dirty" element.

 

[kromanjon]

I am? Then I appologize. I still think you have to do more than watch a youtube video to figure out if you should practice martial arts or not. It's just a subject close to my heart.

 

[Hobbit_Feet]

Shame I'm not in London to join those groups.

No worries, and welcome to chronicles, Hobbit Feet.

Thank you Brian. I stumbled on this site and i'm glad i did. Like minded people that enjoy a good fantasy novel ha ha.

Looking at the other comments. I have studied a variety of martial arts over the years and it took until Jan 2012 to find my way in this field of interest. I was sick of instructors who either wanted lots of money per month off me to learn things i already knew. Then there was the "hey with your experience you can join and spar with our squad for competitions." This in itself isn't wrong but very commercial.

I found Sifu Jon on a very small website that taught Foshan Wing Chun (This was taught by Yip Man in Foshan China before it got diluted in Hong Kong). A martial art but mainly a combat system (it's not pretty but very direct and very lethal if applied properly), so there isn't any competitions. It's also taught traditionally which means it's a grade less system, so it's years of experience rather than a recognition of a belt. The guy who teaches me does it for the love of the art and isn't out to make huge sums of money out of anyone, so this was music to my ears.

His teachings make the art like a journey, to follow a path and learn along the way.

I have noticed there are a lot of debates regarding martial arts and I have listened to a lot of them. I always answer any opinion (forced or not). "wow you study that one? Do you enjoy it? Fantastic." Then you can gauge how much they put in by how long they have studied it. Plus it helps my knowledge on what else is out there and if there maybe a chance with cross training.

Now the guy who teaches me also does a variety of forms weapons forms with tai chi which I happily take part in to get my weapons knowledge up (staff, sword).

I will say this though (which may cause a lot of debate). Due to the Chinese arts being some of the oldest in the world, I can see a lot of similar movements between them and Western arts i.e sworplay, quarterstaff and boxing/ bare knuckle fighting. So I find that my base with Wing Chun and tai chi is a good starting point then developing my research to western styles around that.

Oh and Hi to everyone form the New Guy......Hobbit Feet

ps Just started reading 'Guards Guards' by Terry Pratchett for the third time. Hilariously funny ha ha

 

[Stephen4444]

Hello, I did not mean to offend anyone…

I do not think watching a video will teach Kung-Fu.

I was merely discussing the topic of "which martial art can be used against an armored opponent and win."

What I meant to say was… you could watch the last video to get a handle on spring power and Fa-Jin. As I stated at the beginning of the post there are thousands of martial arts… I do not mean to offend any of the people who practice them. I have great respect for any master.

I did not have a lot of time when I posted… thus I seemed terse in my short explanation.

Again, if I offended anyone, I meant no offence.

The reason I think External martial arts will not win against an armed attacker is the fact that: external meets power with power. Against a sword that will not work. Yip Man, (mentioned in earlier post,) states that clearly in his teachings; as well many other martial arts.

Internal, or soft martial arts, meets hardness with softness. Picture wrapping a silk clothe over a sword then snatching it out of an opponent's hand. With the same move,(pulling with your left side and using your opponents energy thrusting toward you,) letting that energy help push your right elbow into his chin.(of course you would have to move toward him with your legs as he was attacking you.)

External martial arts never teach that… (meeting hardness with softness, then redirecting hardness back.) Today other martial arts have adopted Chen Tai Chi principles to improve their martial abilities.

IE:; Push Hands does not come from Kindo, Karate, ETC, it was adopted from Chen Taji. The same goes for Chin-Na (joint locking.) A Chen Master can wipe the floor with Kendo Master. (I don't mean to offend with that statement) So… no hate mail please?


I'm sure, that anyone taking a martial art for a long period time, is defensive of their particular style. Different arts have different styles. "Just because my writing style is different than yours does not make me wrong... it just makes me different." "I think we should accept peoples differences. NO! I think we should celebrate them.

 

[Stephen4444]

In this video 6:39 minutes he deals with martial application (hands against broad sword.)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Holnh-VEysA

 

[kromanjon]

Sorry it was a snap reaction from my part. And I'm not defensive about my own style since I'vre trained many styles I was just defensive against martial arts as a whole.

I agree that soft martial arts is the way to go against armored opponents or those much stronger than you. Someone in this thread commented that wrestling (greco-roman) would probably not be a good style against someone with armor but I desagree (in a sense). I think in-fighting with grapples and trips would be the best way to defeat someone wearing armor and possibly wielding a long weapon like a sword or axe.

I think anyone who practice martial arts should not just stick to one style. I mean sure, if you want to master something you should stick with it for a lifetime, but one should never be afraid to branch out and try something new.

At the moment I have at one point or another tried six different styles and a couple of weeks ago I started on my seventh, Wing Chun. Now I do have some styles I prefer but a acknowledge that sertain situations demand other approches.

Seems like we see eye to eye on this anyway Stephen though you made a rushed post and I made a thoughtless reply. I hope you forgive me and that balance can be restored to the forums.

This should be about writing anyway. Sorry about the threadjack.

 

[Toby Frost]

I've just remembered a book called "English Martial Arts" by Terry Brown. Mr Brown demonstrates a number of methods while dressed like Mick Fleetwood on the cover of Rumours, and it's a pretty interesting read. Unsurprisingly, concepts and stances overlap, but it deals with swords, quarterstaffs, fists and so on. There is also some background history, which is worth a look.

I remember reading a more scholarly book along these lines too, which I think was The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe by Prof Sydney Anglo.

 

[Hobbit_Feet]

I've just remembered a book called "English Martial Arts" by Terry Brown. Mr Brown demonstrates a number of methods while dressed like Mick Fleetwood on the cover of Rumours, and it's a pretty interesting read. Unsurprisingly, concepts and stances overlap, but it deals with swords, quarterstaffs, fists and so on. There is also some background history, which is worth a look.

I remember reading a more scholarly book along these lines too, which I think was The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe by Prof Sydney Anglo.

Hi Toby

I have Terry Brown's book in my collection and its a cracking reference. History and Techniques all roled into one.

Looking at the quarterstaff and sword had very similar to the Tai Chi Sword form and Wing Chun 6 point pole form. All movements are very direct and very effective.

Hobbit Feet

 

[Gumboot]

You've got a range of options here, many of them touched on by other posters, for addressing this issue. Simply speaking, anything is a viable option, as long as you properly consider the consequences and implications of what you're doing.

In my own writing I've incorporated a martial arts training regime which is based on the Chinese body of Martial Arts (wushu). This would normally be out of place in a medieval-type world, but the practitioners are a minor religious cult of a very isolated civilisation, and a carry-over from a distant time. And when encountering modern armoured soldiers they do have problems, and have to be taught where the weaknesses are, and adjust their fighting accordingly.

I don't think there's anything particularly odd about a sole individual having exceptional skill that most don't possess. Indeed; that's the very premise of most classic Chinese martial arts stories - the body of wushu wasn't the normal fighting style of Chinese armies, but originally a very "secret" and individual skill, mastered by very few.

Europe had its own versions, as others have pointed out, some of them unfortunately lost due to Europe's long evolution of warfare and historic poor record keeping.

There is a common mentality that eastern martial arts was a complex process of sophisticated learning, and that westerners basically just strapped on armour and bashed each other. This is wrong. Medieval knights were professional fighters who dedicated their lives to martial arts, and developed incredibly complex and sophisticated fighting systems. There were a multitude of different schools of sword play as well as training in use of other weapons. The oldest surviving manual on Medieval Martial Arts is the Tower Manuscript (Royal Armouries Ms 133) which details sword and buckler fighting techniques from a Franconian Monestary in the late 13th or early 14th Century. Notably, in the manuscript the instructor is referred to as "sacerdus" (priest). One can easily envisage a Medieval traveller making a harrowing journey to a far-off mountain monestary to learn some particular martial art before then venturing into the world.

One of the things mentioned was the quarterstaff. As well as being a popular peasant's weapon, more formal training for knights utilised the weapon, and some quarterstaff fighting is incredibly sophisticated, comfortably as sophisticated as wushu styles (I've trained in both). A quarterstaff was an exceptionally effective weapon, and in competent hands could easily defeat an armoured knight or any other sort of heavily armed/protected adversity.

I can easily see a medieval wanderer who was once a student at an isolated monestary (perhaps preserving ancient fighting techniques of the Elves?), travelling the world armed with a quarterstaff and a misericorde (a type of narrow-bladed dagger so called because of its use to give the "mercy kill" to knights after a battle), capable of besting anyone he might encounter in single combat, and even being skilled enough to defeat a number at once.

 

[Stephen4444]

You've got a range of options here, many of them touched on by other posters, for addressing this issue. Simply speaking, anything is a viable option, as long as you properly consider the consequences and implications of what you're doing.

I don't think there's anything particularly odd about a sole individual having exceptional skill that most don't possess.

but originally a very "secret" and individual skill, mastered by very few.

A quarterstaff was an exceptionally effective weapon, and in competent hands could easily defeat an armoured knight or any other sort of heavily armed/protected adversity.

I can easily see a medieval wanderer who was once a student at an isolated monestary defeat a number at once.

I agree with these statements. One vote for Gumboot

 

[Jake Reynolds]

Not to mention the TV show Kung Fu too. Doesn't get much more fish out of water than a 'Chinese' kung fu master travelling the wild west.

 

[nubins]

There is a tv show called Ultimate Warrior that is pretty interesting. I imagine plenty of you have seen it, but if you haven't... each week they pick a different "warrior" from history and pitch them against another "warrior" from history and work out who had the more effective combat style - based on their weapons and armour principally. They get experts in that particular era and fighting style on as advocates and then setup tests that are run by a forensics scientist and an ER doctor.

They are always warriors who never historically faced off against each other (due to time or geography).

It often comes up with some surprising results... and it can be quite interesting to see the reactions of the advocates when their chosen specialisation, that they have been proclaiming as the mostest bestest thing ever, suddenly catasrophically fails against their opponents counter. Watching the reactions of the Japanese Samurai advocates, as their Katana managed to look like it wouldn't even tickle against a chainmailed opponent, was priceless . As was the French Muskateer as their pistol failed to penetrate the breast plate of knight's armour (they got their revenge with the musket i think, but still, I was surprised - also the blunderbus of a pirate was equally effective).

The show is obviously flawed in it's final outcomes and can't be perfect, but it does make you think a little more objectively when comparing fighting styles and considering how hard it is to plan for all eventualities.

 

[kromanjon]

It does make you think a little more objectively when comparing fighting styles and considering how hard it is to plan for all eventualities.

I agree, and sometimes no planing in the world can save you. A guy with a gun ten meters away from you and all you can do is hope he's a crap shot. No martial art in the world will save you. You have to be realistic about these things.