A Dance with Dragons - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!

I still believe that Jon is a Targaryen, Rhaegar son, and therefore Aegon's younger half-brother. The irony is that it still means that he's a *******, just not one Catelyn should have felt threatened by. I also don't believe that his storyline is over, he can't be dead, at least not permanently. More and more, I am beginning to believe that he is Azor Ahai, this would make Melissandre's position in the story make more sense. I reckon that either she or Bran will fix Jon up again somehow. After which he will have to wise up, what a series of rooky mistakes did he make in ADWD.
 
This is not a particularly revolutionary idea, but I am going to mention it because I think it is cool. Throughout the entire novel, the story seems to revolve around the gathering of Allies, some more unlikely/unexpected than others. When you think about it, just about every POV character gains allies throughout their chapters:

Jon: Stannis (mostly), Melisandre (sort of), Tormund, Mance, The Wildlings, Tycho Nestoris (by contract at least), Alys Karstark (and by association the new House Thenn)

Dany: Quentyn (however briefly), Gerris, The Big Man, The Shavepate, THe Brazen Beasts, The Mothers Men, The Stalwart Shields, The Free Brothers, (and also, It is my belief that GRRM is setting Dany up to finally get that Dothraki army that she always needed, not to mention Tyrion is on his way. The Widow of the Wharf and the slaves of Old Volantis (although only Tyrion and Jorah know this).

Griff: The Golden Company

Tyrion: Aegon and his compatriots (although this is arguable), Jorah Mormont, Penny, and (also arguably) Brown Ben Plumm

Bran:The Children of the Forest, Brynden, Summer's new wolves, The Weirwood trees

Theon: Jeyne Poole, Mance and his spearwives

Asha: Alysane Mormont, some of Stannis's knights, Stannis (at least through his sparing her life)

Arya: Izembaro, her new teacher

Stannis(not a POV I know): The Mountain Clans, House Mormont, House Glover (partially), A bunch of scattered soldiers who used to serve other houses, Jon Snow and the Night's Watch, Mors Umber

Davos: Wyman Manderly, Robett Glover, Wex

Victarion: Moqorro

Cersei: Ser Robert Strong

***I know i didn't mention Jaime and Areo Hotah, but they gathered allies in AFFC***
 
That's a good pint, and inarguably true.

I think this is leadiong up to the next two (three?) books to be very fast paced. GRRM has already said that the next book is going to start by finnishing unfinnished business. Particularly the Meereen Knot.

It's going to be a good one.
 
Allright this seems like the perfect place to go all out on my little theory about the AA prophecy.

As it was made abundently clear in the books religion and prophecies are allways debatable and never reliable. This led me to think for quite some time that the AA prophecy was allways misinterpreted by many to mean that we will get one hero that will save the day and his allies. But given GRRM's style I doubt he would do that and I began thinking that the AA and the Targ stuff must be connected (after all the AA prophecy is connected to fighting the eternal winte -Ice- and the Targ stuff is deeply connected to fire). Right now there are many candidates to fullfill the prophecy of AA but none of them are capable of doing so succsesfully.

Everyone's favorites are Dany, Jon and Tyrion. Dany may have the strenght with her dragons but she is too immature, she doesn't know how to leed people and she isn't even aware of the big stakes, nor would she take them seriously util it's too late even if she was (to her they may not even be child storyes and may seem like the ramblings of mad men). Jon has the leadership skills and the understanding of the threat, and he a;so is capable of facing The Others. I think Jon can truly win, but he needs some serious help in order to do so. But after he wins Jon will never want to rule the realm. He laks the ambition or the desire for making the realm a better place, and he lacks the knowleadge to do so. He is a ruller for a time of war, more hero than king. Tyrion ... what can I say ... he has the brains but in every other aspect he falls flat. He doesn't acknoledge the threath of the others, he is an imp (which for a medieval society is a big flaw for a ruller) and would be unable to ride a dragon, and recent events, actions and betrayaks have shaken him deep inside and I think some screws might be a bit loose with him. Plus he has a fetish for killing his relatives ... not a good sign.

The way I view things is that every part of the prophecy needs a different embodiment and ADWD finaly gave me the last piece to complete my theory. AA is the hero of the tale, the warrior that drives back the cold. Well the obvious choice from all the development he got, his location and actions is Jon Snow. I see him as AA revorn, the hero that saves the world from the eternal winter of the others. Next we have TPTWP. Think a bit outside the box: a good warrior does not a good king make (robert anyone?). For me TPTWP part of the prophecy connects to someone whose role is outside the fight, someone who comes after the hero to heal the land and esure peace reigns. Now Targs are obviously a big part of this story and now think about the way not just Varys, but the actions of Aegon himself portray him. His secret history and th way he was raised plus the brief sequences we see of him all make him seem like someone who understands how to rule both in times of war (leading the men himself and staying at their side) but also in time of peace (mostly beeing hinted by Varys). Aegon to me (unless GRRM pulls a bait and switch on us) is the perfect leader for Westeros once the others are defeated by Jon. He will be a pefect king. And at this moment he is a prince returned to his land to save it in it's darkest hour. If this doesn't spell TPTWP, I don't know what does. And the final piece of the prophecy and the targ trinity is of course Lightbringer. Why does it need to be a phisical sword? Lightbringer to me is the means to combat the cold of the others. And gues who fits here? Dany through her children. She and her Dragons have the strenght to win the fight almost singlehandedly. But, and I'm sorry for pissing off Dany fans, she was shown time and time again to be a piss-poor military leader and a crapy monarch with very little ability to understand the needs of the realm and too many idealistic views. Plus she needs someone to guide her power to this conflict much like someone guides a sword to the heart of his enemy. If Dany ever comes to rule Westeros I think people will be wishing Aerys the Mad was back (least he didn't have dragons).

The way I see this play-out is Jon will lead the fight, Dany will provide the key to victory and Aegon will be the binding foce that pulls the realm toghether for this struggle and forges a new Westeros that isn't seven kingdoms, but one. Or GRRM could just make me look like and idiot and nothing like this happens but hey on one hand I feel I understand a bit of how he thinks after reading all his books at least twice (except ADWD though I'm on my halfway through a second time) and one the other this would be one epic way to bring everything toghether, provide an awseome final showdown and set the stage for the bittersweet ending of the book.

PS: I would post the link to my post that explains why I think Jon isn't dead but my post count isn't high enough. Stills it's in Jon's thread page 48 if anyone is interested.

EDIT: Man here I go on a ramble feast again, I need to trim down my posts.
 
"I would have thought that going backwards would be the last thing that this book needs, but I am only a young girl and know little of the ways of story advancement."

LOL!!
 
Ever since I thought Jon was AA (which has been a good while now) I have always thought that Jon would warg into Snow to survive a "death" and then warg back into his body. So on the record, that is my best bet as to what will happen with his cliffhanger. However, I am not totally convinced. Especially after my last two re-reads. I just can't shake the first chapter (Varamyr) and Jon's development over the whole book, especially his last chapter. So let's run with it.

I am convinced, however, that we must read Jon Snow's final POV chapter in light of the first chapter of the book. The symmetry is all there. If you are skeptical, just read the first chapter, then all of Jon's POVs in one sitting. It seems pretty clear that Varamyr's chapter is to lay the foundation for Jon's choosing of his second life, and there are some disturbing hints at what that second life might be.

So what are my assumptions (besides the one I stated above):

1. Jon is dead. His second life will be unique.

If Jon's story is connected to Varamyr's then I would say yes. Definitely. You have to experience true death in order to have your second life. In Varamyr's chapter the cold is a reference to death, not the cellars, not the Others showing up, not almost death - but death. True death. The death that leads to second life. The reason that the statement he didn't feel the fourth knife isn't a violation of POV is because Jon is in the second life out of body state. He can see himself. The reason he whisper's Ghost is he is "seeing" or connecting to possible warging targets like Varamyr did. This has a great symmetry with the prophecies of AA being reborn amidst smoke and salt. Second life. AA reborn. Again, it is very powerfully connected. This leads to me think that Jon's death is real, and that his second life will be substantially unique given his role in the story. This is not even to mention Aemon's "kill the boy, become the man" foreshadowing.

2. Our narrators are mostly reliable.

This is the real problem for Needle's theory. GRRM would violate everything he cares about in storytelling to make the "2 hour gap" about a convoluted glamor-warg-plot to secure Jon's safety (as much as I love that theory). We have had semi-unreliable narrators, but nothing so horrible. It would be horrific writing. Cheap. Non-Martinian. What we see is what we get for the most part.

3. Jon's death scene and its resolution will tie together all the elements GRMM has been building for us in Jon's story.

The absence of the Queen. The absence of her knights. The plotting of the Night's Watch. The cellars. Mel's visions / interest in Snow. The mysterious dream Jon had (is particularly interesting).

So given these assumptions, what are the options?

1. Ghost.

Ghost is a likely option. We learn about how there is a choice involved in the second life as Varamyrs weighs his options during his death. Varamyr is taken "out of body" and chooses old One Eye (out of many options) for his second life. I think this is part of what we see with Jon when he whispers, "Ghost". But if this is a true second life I don't think Jon will choose Ghost. I think the queensmen knights / Night's Watch have killed or are also killing Ghost (which is why the other knights are absent and not just Sir Patrek). There is certainly evidence/hints for it in the last couple of chapters and in the story. Also, when the Starks don't listen to their direwolves, it all goes bad. Especially for the wolves. It is possible the knights, the queen and the remaining crows have schemed to change the situation at the wall in all of their favors. If fact, I don't think Bowen goes through with the assassination UNLESS the knights are in on it as well. Otherwise, they cannot overpower the wildlings there with Tormund, and the Snow sympathizers. Think about it. The Queen wants Val and a different Lord Commander. Sir Patrek wants Val. Bowen Marsh and others want Jon dead and the Wall restored to "normal". And one thing no one has mentioned on any forums I've frequented is this simple reality: any half descent scheme to kill Jon, has to include killing Ghost as well. I feel dirty for typing it, but it is true. Sadly, Jon has Ghost locked up in a confined space. If GRMM wants us to feel pain at Jon's "resurrection" but not the pain of losing Jon forever, the way to do it is to take the direwolf. One way for Jon to "kill the boy" is through losing the only family he has had on the wall, his Ghost.

Regardless of my musings, keeping in mind that I think the text leads us to a true second life coming for Jon and not just a haha warg'd out, heal me up, warg back, then Ghost is not possible. Jon is too important as a POV, etc to simply be in Ghost for the rest of the story.

2. Not Wun Wun, the Boar or any human nearby.

For similar reasons above and for abomination rules these are not true second life options. In the first chapter we read that eventually, if you second life into an animal, over time you lose yourself in that animal eventually. You merge / their psyche takes over eventually. So this wouldn't be possible for Jon.

3. The dead corpses in the cells.

So is there another option that is not Ghost, not Wun Wun, nor a human that Jon could, in his desperation, warg into? Yes. One of the wight bodies in the cellar. Perfectly preserved and not just rotting away like his own corpse would. Potentially, Jon wouldn't even have to "lose" himself eventually in this second life. He could inhabit this new body for good. It also makes sense of his dream where he is AA fighting the Others as they scramble up the Wall, he looks like himself, but different, "armored in black ice" (like an Other?) wielding his a flaming sword.

I think it is a stretch, and I personally hope for a Ghost warg - back into his own body once it has recovered. But for some reason this makes more sense to me every time I read it. AND I think this would account for the kinds of changes that need to happen to Jon's character in just 2 books to make him the bad ass he needs to be, the hardening of his resolve to be AA.

Thoughts?
 
You feel dirty for typing that Ghost may have to be killed, I feel dirty for reading it. I don't even want to think about that. I may not be able to forgive Martin if he keeps killing off all their wolves. What happened to Lady and Grey Wind was bad enough.
 
You pose some interesting points Dogmatix, and as much as I hate to think you are right about Ghost, I think you are right about Ghost.

My problem with Jon warging into a body in the Ice cells is this...

Its a Dead Body in a Cell.

Unless he had the forthought to put it somewhere else (not chained up) or knew enough to tell someone he might be warging into it, it would not be a good place to be.

A) its chained up in a cell
B) It's a Dead body. Which means as soon as he is in there and starts walking around, everyone is going to start yelling "Burn it!, Kill it with fire!" Nobody is going to take the time to start asking it questions, not Queens Men, or Wildlings, or NW men, loyal or not.

So if we are sumitting to the possibility that he is warging into one of the dead bodies, then he would have had to plan it beforehand, which leads to all the same arguments about Needles theory
 
I agree with Arsten. It's most likely that Jon will have done something about the corpses if he counted on getting stabbed.
 
ArstenWhitebeard said:
So if we are sumitting to the possibility that he is warging into one of the dead bodies, then he would have had to plan it beforehand, which leads to all the same arguments about Needles theory
Click to expand...

I don't think it is planned. If Jon is dying and he can't warg into Ghost, and doesn't want to warg into the boar, Wun Wun or humans, what if he is forced to go into one of them or perish for good? At the very least, he may warg into them temporarily instead of Ghost to survive. This could give him the insight he needs to destroy or get an upper hand over the Others. What would we give to see the enemy POV from within one of the wights? What could Jon learn from this? How they communicate? Who is leading? Impressions of a goal, plan or greater understanding of the Others?

It has potential, especially since, you know, Ghost is dead.
 
Im not saying he couldn't do it, or that he had planned to do it. I'm just saying it would not be the best strategic option, and he would then need to go somewhere from there. He would need to warg into something else, because he isn't walking out of that cell.

He could reside in there temporarily untill Mel breathes life back into his body or something.
 
probably, but who knows. theres alot of discussion on whether different red priests are better at/have more power in, different skills. Like Mel is good at seeing vision in the flames and Moqorro is good at healing and Thoros can breathe Life.

I also want to point out that we don't know if Thoros' trick worked on anyone but Berric. I think if it had, the Brotherhood without Banners would be the most powerful army out there (so long as Thoros didn't Die)

He could also have brought back their enemies and said "now you fight for us, or we kill you again, only this time, not so quick." and if people disagreed, they could be sacrificed to the Red God, Slow Roast style.
 
Dogmatix said:
It has potential, especially since, you know, Ghost is dead.
Click to expand...
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(:(:(:(:(
 
ArstenWhitebeard said:
I also want to point out that we don't know if Thoros' trick worked on anyone but Berric. I think if it had, the Brotherhood without Banners would be the most powerful army out there (so long as Thoros didn't Die)
Click to expand...

It's possible I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here but his "trick" worked on Catelyn as well. Also, he physically changed every time he performed the Breath of Life, becoming "older" and weaker each time. Remember, he was a jolly fat monk when we first met him and by the time Brienne sees him in AFFC, he looks ancient and is nothing but skin and bones. Brienne barely recognizes him. My point is that eventually performing resurrections is going to kill him and that it will happen sooner than later. No chance for the Brotherhood to become the most powerful army unless they had a separate army of Thoros types backing them up.
 
Dogmatix, Welcome.

I tend to agree with Varamyr's mentor... warging into another person is wrong. Bran's a kid, he does not know any better and Hodor's basically defenseless anyway.

But on to Jon... A true and unique second life by warging into a dead body would truly be something. Remind me who these bodies are... Rangers or Wildlings? But don't you think that someone would notice if a body was up and walking around again? He'd have to hightail it out of there. He'd be a loner. He'd be a former brother of the NW forced to live alone north of the wall. And he'd have warging powers to have the forest critters help him.... hmmmmm, sounds like Coldhands.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Groot What should I read after I've finished A Dance with Dragons George R R Martin 22
Pedro Del Mar Characters at the end of A Dance With Dragons George R R Martin 8
L A dance with Dragons George R R Martin 10
Ursa major A Dance with Dragons - NO SPOILERS, PLEASE George R R Martin 0
Werthead A Dance with Dragons by George R.R. Martin Reviews & Interviews 1

Similar threads


Back
Top