Pre-Egypt Technology

So what is the proposed date for the pyramids in question, and where are they? Are they in Greece?

Yes they're in Greece.

Hellinikon Pyramid - 2730±720
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(meaning it predates the oldest Egyptian pyramid by a century.)
Ligourio Pyramid - 2260±710
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Prior to this they were generally thought to date to the classical/Hellenistic age (due to pottery finds).

For the record this study was done back in '95.
 
Here's two wiki pages on the subject that I found RJM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoluminescence_dating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_of_Hellinikon

The first one is just about the mechanism. The second is about the dating of the Pyramid of Hellinikon. The date they have come up with is around 2720 BC which is about 100 years before the first Egyptian pyramid. The page also contains an argument against those dates stating that they were biased towards getting the result they wanted... "in order to confirm a predetermined theory about the age of these structures".
 

Sorry your post landed while I was drafting mine. Graham Hancock (...again) has pretty clear findings by geologists that the lower part of the sphinx was weathered by very heavy rainfall, which has not happened in Egypt during the whole extent of Egyptian history as we know it.
 
IIRC, the simplest solution to the paradox would be that an existing outcrop was customised to become the Sphinx...

A similar head-scratcher could eventually be caused by Mt Rushmore...
 
OK well there seems to be some debate on that point:

Most Egyptologists, dating the building of the Sphinx to Khafra's reign (2520–2492 BC), do not accept the water erosion theory. Alternative explanations for the evidence of weathering, from Aeolian processes and acid rain to exfoliation, haloclasty, thermal expansion, and even the poor quality limestone of the Sphinx, have been put forward by Egyptologists and geologists, including Mark Lehner,[19] James A. Harrell of the University of Toledo,[28] Lal Gauri, John J. Sinai and Jayanta K. Bandyopadhyay,[29] Alex Bordeau,[30] and Lambert Dolphin, a former senior research physicist at SRI International.[31]

The chief proponents of the water erosion theory have rejected these alternative explanations. Reader, for example, points to the tombs dug into the Enclosure walls during Dynasty XXVI (c. 600 BC), and notes that the entrances of the tombs have weathered so lightly that original chisel marks are still clearly visible. He points out that if the weathering on the Enclosure walls (up to a metre deep in places) had been created by any of the proposed alternative causes of erosion, the tomb entrances would have been weathered much more severely.[32] Similarly, Schoch points out that the alternative explanations do not account for the absence of similar weathering patterns on other rock surfaces in the Giza pyramid complex

However even the water erosion theory still only puts it at around 5000 BC, which is not before the current accepted start of the Egyptian civilisation.

Also I would have to add (though I certainly don't know the facts here so pure supposition) that maybe the tombs dug into the enclosure walls came much later or were faced with better quality limestone (I have been there and as a rock climber I can truthfully say that the limestone of the Sphinx is some of the poorest quality limestone I've seen :)). Maybe poor quality limestone was chosen because it is softer and therefore easier to work into such a huge statue.
 
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IIRC, the simplest solution to the paradox would be that an existing outcrop was customised to become the Sphinx ...

That is probably quite likely.

OK well there seems to be some debate on that point:



However even the water erosion theory still only puts it at around 5000 BC, which is not before the current accepted start of the Egyptian civilisation.

Also I would have to add (though I certainly don't know the facts here so pure supposition) that maybe the tombs dug into the enclosure walls came much later or were faced with better quality limestone (I have been there and as a rock climber I can truthfully say that the limestone of the Sphinx is some of the poorest quality limestone I've seen :)). Maybe poor quality limestone was chosen because it is softer and therefore easier to work into such a huge statue.

So water erosion looks more likely than dry erosion, taking into account the quality of the rock, balanced against weathering patterns to other structures in the vicinity, and of course the Egyptologist's propensity to support their 'model'? But the water erosion, if that's what caused the erosion -- happened not 12 but 7 thousand years ago? At around the earliest beginning of the Egyptian civilization as we know it?

Yes. The sphinx may have been built before then. There would still have been a lot of lesser floods and global disasters happening -- aftershocks, so to speak, of the initial 'great flood' -- that would have continued for perhaps 1000 years or more after the main event, as the ice age rapidly melted away.

If this happened after sudden global crustal displacement, where continents shifted latitude/longitude by thousands of miles and the polar ice caps were very suddenly shifted to equatorial latitudes -- even the subsequent flooding caused by the ice caps melting would be gradual compared to the disasterous effects of that very rapid continental displacement?

One cannot even imagine what would happen if today the crust of the earth were to suddenly slip around over the lower mantle that it floats on, and all the continents were to change their latitude/longitude position, while still keeping their positions relative to one another.

Albert Einstein supported this possibility, in writing.
 
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"If this happened after sudden global crustal displacement, where continents shifted latitude/longitude by thousands of miles"

Sorry, no. The sea-floor magnetic stripes aka 'barcodes' caused by magnetic reversals would flag such excursions beyond reasonable doubt. The Atlantic's mirror-stripes cover at least the last twenty million years, and other areas go much further...
http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/platetec/kula.htm

http://scienceblogs.com/highlyallochthonous/2009/12/6_fields_a-flipping.php

Don't hold this error against Einstein: Acceptance of Sea-floor Spreading came later. In fact, I remember that when the definitive paper was published, our college's entire Geography department went out and got drunk-- The young folk to celebrate, the old folk as a wake for their demolished paradigm...

ps: Here's a fun page...
http://www.geology.sdsu.edu/kmlgeology/magnetics.html
 
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I'll check out the link, Nik, and also go out and celebrate if it's true -- but, just to clarify: this is not 'continental drift' or tectonic subduction we're talking about here? It's the whole thirty mile thick crust slipping over the mantle in one piece, like the skin of an orange slipping over the orange inside, if that were possible?

EDIT: And sorry I'm not getting it from that. Its sad but its true. All I'm seeing there is plate tectonics and magnetic pole reversal -- unless those magnetic time markers can also mark the latitude/longitude position of those strata on the globe at the time when the pole shifts occurred? But I can find nothing there that says it's more than an effective chronological dating tool for sub-oceanic geological time periods -- it doesn't appear to mark their latitude/longitude position in relation to the above?
 
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As I understand it after a bit of digging (no pun intended I promise) the Sphinx was not "built", it is a monolith; it is carved into an existing outcrop and the "body" was faced with cut stone. However also digging a bit further the erosion business is not refering to erosion on the Sphinx itself. If it is just an outcrop with a head carved on it (like Rushmore) I don't suppose the erosion would tell us very much since it was obviously there and being eroded long before the Egyptions were around. It just hadn't been carved then! However I think the erosion argument is about the enclosure wall around it which I suspect was also carved out of the existing rock and therefore should have less erosion. Haven't managed to find out much more than that though.
 
Well I've remembered everything about Giza, but never mind.
I scratched my initials inside the not-so-great-pyramid.
How many wonders of the ancient world have you managed to put graffitti on?
Ha. Thought so. Some experts. Snikr.* )
 
" ... it doesn't appear to mark their latitude/longitude position in relation to the above?"

Sorry for the delay replying, I'd forgotten about this thread...

You can check the rock's magnetism's 'horizontal' and 'vertical' components. Former gives you direction plus NS/SN, latter's tilt gives a measure of latitude.

There is a 'gotcha' as, during magnetic pole reversals, global magnetic field goes through a tangled 'multi-pole' arrangement which may collapse to either NS or SN. The currently growing 'South Atlantic Anomaly' may be evidence of the start of a future switch.

But, when you have some-where like Hawaii, with layer upon layer of lava in successive strata, it would be easy to spot a sudden change in magnetic latitude. Also, lake and sea sediments would show a switch in climate zones...

IIRC, the 'crustal shift' idea sought to explain some of the geological features which were later resolved by tectonic plates. Hapgood wrote before, then did not accept plate tectonics or the evidence of the magnetic stripes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole_shift_hypothesis

This link also mentions 'true polar wander' which is completely different from 'pole shift'.
"... the geographical poles have not deviated by more than about 5° over the last 130 million years.[19] More rapid past possible occurrences of true polar wander have been measured: from 790 to 810 million years ago, true polar wander of approximately 55° may have occurred twice.[4]"
... at rates of 1° per million years or less.
 
Well I've remembered everything about Giza, but never mind.
I scratched my initials inside the not-so-great-pyramid.
How many wonders of the ancient world have you managed to put graffitti on?
Ha. Thought so. Some experts. Snikr.* )
I've been inside three Egyptian pyramids, including Khufu's, but didn't get round to defacing even one of them.


Not that I'd call myself an expert on anything associated with Egypt (or anything else, really).
 
Well, we were there in the early fifties and such things still happened. I think they stopped any such behaviour right around that time.
You know what it's like to stand in those structures then Ursa, it's not something that translates well to TV, is it? )
 

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