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Wise Man's Fear (Contains Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Patrick Rothfuss' started by IlliferThePenniless, Mar 9, 2011.

  1.  
    Gumboot

    Gumboot lorcutus.tolere

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    Personally I'm a little doubtful of Denna being the missing Lackless sister, for a couple of reasons.

    1. Only the Maer describes Meluan as "young" and he's 40. When Kvothe actually meets her the narrative almost makes a point of not referencing her age.

    2. The indicators that Kvothe's mother is Natalia are far too strong for it to be coincidence, which means if she's not Natalia Lackless, the author deliberately put that stuff in for no reason than to misdirect the reader, which seems like a pretty cheap and dishonest tactic.

    3. When Kvothe meets Meluan he finds her painfully familiar, but can't place her. That is in fitting with his mother - who he hasn't seen in 4 years and whose memory he has repressed. It doesn't fit with Denna, who he has been seeing on daily basis, and is obsessed with. Further, on several other occasions he meets strangers and notes their similarity to Denna - making it improbable he would not make the connection with a girl who actually did look like Denna.

    4. Denna's age doesn't fit. When we meet her she's 15 or 16, and by this time she's already in her worldly "change her name, catch the guys" mode. Deorch has already had a relationship with her, and she seems to be well known. That suggests she has been around for at least a year or two, which would make her 12 or 13 when she ran away from home, which seems rather young to be swept off her feet by a singer.

    5. Kvothe's mother, on the other hand, is just the right age. If we assume it happened 15/16 years earlier, you're looking at say, a 16 yr old noble woman, swept off her feet in giddy romance, runs off, lives happily ever after.

    6. I would put Meluan's age at mid 20's at the very youngest - her behaviour is quite mature and grown-up, and we have only the Maer's say-so that she's "young". If she's 25, that means she was 9 when her 16 year old sister ran away from home. If she's older (probably no older than around 30 I think) she could have been quite close to Natalia's age, perhaps even twins. There's also the "sole heir" mention which suggests Natalia was older than Meluan, although that's not necessarily true.

    7. Meluan's hatred of the Ruh speaks to an old affront, not a new one. If the running away had been recent they'd be trying to get her back, or there would be the personal shock and disbelief. What we see is a deep-set and poisonous hatred; that's more likely something that has been festering for years and years. It also makes sense that it happened when she was a child; as a grown adult if her sister ran off she's be more likely to be furious at her sister, but otherwise not so worried. But if it happened when Meluan was young; her companion/sister is "stolen" from her at a young age (too young to appreciate that it was her sister's choice) that better explains the trauma that might cause such hatred.
     
  2.  
    Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    good analysis, Gumboot. I definitely fall in the camp of Natalia being Kvothe's mother. I mean, Rothfuss almost beats us over the head with it, practically hanging a flashing neon sign in the subtext.
     
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  3.  
    stephen.samuels

    stephen.samuels Mr

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    This may have been discussed previously so I apologize if it has been, but:

    Has anyone any idea who the angel may be? The one which Kvothe kills?

    I'd also like to add that I'm firmly in the camp of Cinder being Denna's patron. I also attributed Kvothe's loss of power to the loss of his name which locked in his thrice locked chest. But there is some larger spell at work, no doubt.
     
  4.  
    stephen.samuels

    stephen.samuels Mr

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    seriously in need of beta readers!
    Also, Rothfuss has said that he'd like to write more stories from this world, so Kvothe's story might finish in three books, but there will probably be more stories in... ... does anyone know what the world is called? Something like "Middle Earth" or "Narnia" or whatever. The Four Corners of Civilization and the Fae? That's a mouthful.

    That being said, I agree with you that the book would have to be huge to wrap up everything in one volume.[/QUOTE]



    I wonder whether Rothfuss will be able to leave Kvothe after three books. We're not even seeing his old age!

    The world is called The Four Corners
     
  5.  
    manifolded

    manifolded New Member

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    I'm late to the party, and this is my first post, so my apologies if I'm repeating old knowledge. This will be mainly some assorted thoughts that I need to share to move on unto other things ;-)

    I just finished WMF. I must say, I had realized some hidden clues but not by half as many as discussed here. This thread has added a whole new depth to the books and I'm in for a second read with everything in mind.

    I haven't seen many mentions about how depressing is the situation at the end of WMF. The book left me in a very dark mood. If you feel some empathy for Kvothe, he's unbearable as a shadow of his former self. My gut feeling is that he didn't let the soldier beat him. He showed surprise when trying to grip him, as if his Ketan was unexpectedly not working. That could be an act, true, but I don't think there are so many layers of indirection. I think the point PR is making here is that Kvothe is truly gone, just as with the chest that won't open.

    Worse still is that I don't think things are going to get much better in book three. People have wondered how we'll get so many resolutions in book 3 alone. Well, PR stated in some interview that there are more books coming but he explicitly didn't want to say if Kvothe is in them, not to spoil day 3.

    Playing the psychologist, just as we do with the book characters, my only hope for Kvothe is that PR be as fond of him as (some of) us are, and in the end will want him to kick ass again, and will make him recover, just as Bast desires. Otherwise, things look quite grim. So my guess is that book 3 will cover the remainder of Kote narration, up to the "present", where things are as bad as they seem: Kvothe is now Kote (I subscribe the changed name theory), he has done some impressive deeds (the Imre battle and a couple others) but the statu quo is unchanged: the Chandrian remain on the loose, etc.

    In this regard, must I point that when Kvothe/Kote retells the Adem leader narration, Bast and Chronicler warn him about using the Chandrian names, which would be pointless if they were already defeated. He plainly says that he has waited more than a thousand miles and days, so it's safe to say them once.

    Hence, the battle is still to be fought, even if Cinder is indeed a goner (a demon and an angel have to day, or something resembling it, right?) My best-case scenario for book 3 ending is that Kvothe is in the path to recovery somehow, or at least determined to try to recover (and then Kvothe might be present in ulterior books).

    On the subject of Denna as a likeable female lead/love interest, I have a friend that was much like her in her young days, and indeed she had plenty of suitors. Perhaps that's a reason this love story rings so true to me; it's like seeing story unfold again, this time in writing. It's uncanny how closely Kvothe/Denna relationship resembles hers. I wonder if PR has known someone like that, or it's just his creative craft.

    Just to summarize, things that I take for granted about book 3:

    • We'll see all important past Kvothe deeds (kingkiller, Imre battle, Denna's betrayal -- incidentally I also subscribe to her being manipulated, but not evil).
    • We'll see if Kvothe is gone for good or not.
    • We'll not see any epic battle against the Chandrian, or whomever is behind the scrael. That's for another book.
    Wishful thinking ideas:

    • Just as in the past, Denna will make a surprise entrance in the Waystone Inn, and that will mean the end of the narration to Chronicler, and will set in motion whatever is the ending of the book.
    • Possibly with Bast help, Kvothe will regain his name.
    In relation to some omissions like the shipwreck, I read in an interview (in tor.com perhaps) that that was left out because of pressure from the editor, since it was not pivotal to the main story arch, and the book was already too long.

    I think this is the interview, interesting for anyone in this thread I suppose: blog.patrickrothfuss.com/2012/05/a-different-sort-of-interview/
     
  6.  
    Maelestrom

    Maelestrom New Member

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    Hi guys,

    found this site the other day and it is great.

    Just wanted to add a thought i had that i haven't yet seen.
    Elodin says that a namer creates a ring for every name that he has power over, but the one thing that cannot be made into a ring would be if Kvothe finds out his own name which were infer that he has mastery over himself but obviously he cannot make it into a ring. Just a crazy thought i was having which could be completely off base.
     
  7.  
    CrumpleHornedSnorkak

    CrumpleHornedSnorkak Beware of the Nargles

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    Wow, this thread is amazing! I have read every page... What a loser!

    I found everyone's ideas very interesting. I hadn't concidered Bredon as Denna's patron, if I'm honest. I read both books a bit too quickly, I think. But, I am currently re-reading NotW, so hopefully will see more than I did previously.

    I have always had the impression that Kvothe is going to die. PR mentions him 'waiting to die' too often for me to not take it literally. Though, possibly it is Kote that will die, and Kvothe will return.

    Someone mentioned Kvothe being expelled from the University having to happen during book three, but I read an online interview with PR and he said that Kvothe's expulsion had already occurred - after the incident with Ambrose.

    I am not really a fan of Denna, I find her infuriating, and it is interesting to see views that she might possibly be a 'baddy' (for want of a better word..) I hadn't previously considered that, and am looking forward to continuing my re-read with that in mind.

    My one issue was the Felurian part, I found it quite tedious... But, I'm not one for sexy stories. Ha!

    I found the Adem quite baffling... Are they mental? Or maybe in PR's world, women do just decided to have babies... Sounds like a good plan to me... Ha!

    Anyway, looking forward to discussing this all further, once I remind myself what you're all talking about!
     
  8.  
    Jo Zebedee

    Jo Zebedee Come away, oh human child - Waters and the Wild

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    I finished this in the wee small hours. Now I'm not a nuance-led reader, more of a character sort and here are a few random thoughts:

    Kvothe/Kote - Kvothe can do anything and is close to unbearably smug about it. This is set against Kote who is nothing extraordinary (although he shows hints of it.) this is clever - we can forgive Kvothe for being extraordinary in the face of Kote not being. I don't think he has lost all his powers - we know he shattered a bottle early on when faced with Chronicler's challenge of why he is remembered. So, the magic hasn't gone. But, he is, I think, deliberately hiding things - he clearly still knows the Ketan at the end, but was beaten by the soldiers. Either it was deliberate or, given Bast is involved somewhere, the soldier also knew the Ketan/how to fight an Amre. The encounter with the Skrael will turn out to be significant I think.

    Also, the Edema Ruh blood must be significant because if Kvothe tells me once more he's Ruh to his marrow I will scream. Is it that he doesn't bring the Lackless blood but the Ruh? There must be more reason behind Lady Lackless' hatred of the Ruh than just her sister running off - hatred that deep, in my experience, is ingrained, from childhood, taught and learned. And, generally, unshakeable. There's lots of talk here about his mother, but little about Arlinden. What have we to learn about him?

    Bast. He's hardly been talked about here, yet is one of the most intriguing characters. Anyone have any idea what Reshi means? And what is his game? What agenda are the fae carrying into this? I can't decide if he will turn out a betrayer or protector. My gut says the latter and it's often better at understanding characters than my brain.

    Which brings me to Denna. I can't stick the woman. At first, I wondered if Pat was just struggling to write a close female character but Devi (where's she fitting into things - there's more to her than we know) and Fela and what not are strong. I can't believe he'd write two supposedly lovers with so little chemistry between them. So I think the hints are there about several things:

    1. How often she manages to just find Kvothe. By the last time I was rolling my eyes. It is as if she is the watcher, staying close, gaining trust, bit never too close.
    2. The knotted hair and the link to Lackless' box definitely makes me feel she is part of the Lackless story. I feel it is more likely Kvothe's mother is the missing sister, but I'm not ruling Denna out. However, given her secrecy about her patron I think there is some connection with the Chandrian, and I think she will be the betrayer. I honestly can't see why he'd write her the way she is otherwise.

    Auri - she's the way to Kvothe. I don't have a good feeling in my bones about how things will end with her (or his other university friends, given the tone he talks about them with). I worry Ambrose will come to know of her.

    And Elodin. He's terrifically important. But I have no idea how. :D
     
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  9.  
    Jo Zebedee

    Jo Zebedee Come away, oh human child - Waters and the Wild

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    Sorry about the double post. I'm just rereading the end because I was very sleepy last night and this is the details of what Bast has in his room:

    There were shelves filled with pictures, trinkets and oddments. Locks of hair wrapped in ribbon. Whistles carved from wood. Dried flowers. Rings of horn and leather and woven grass. A hand-dipped candle with leaves pressed into it.

    Which means we have (almost) everything in the Waystone Inn that's needed:

    Seven thing stand before
    The entrance to the Lackless Door

    One of them a ring unworn

    Stapes horn ring was never to be worn.

    One a word that is forsworn
    Kvothe's name.

    One a time that must be right
    I wonder if this is Chronicler's arrival, engineered by Bast,

    One a candle without light
    See above, Bast has a candle not for light.
    One a son who brings the blood

    Probably Kvothe. But which blood? He's more concerned with his Ruh blood than any Lackless connection.

    One a door that holds the flood

    I'm not sure about this one, although there has been reference to locking the inn's door a lot. I might reread and see if I can find a reference to this.


    One a thing tight held in keeping

    I think this is probably the box.

    Then comes that which comes with sleeping.

    Sleep was the first way to cope. Whatever has happened, Kvothe is protecting himself as he did as a child. In telling his story he's not allowing himself to fall into forgetfulness. So, resilience comes from sleeping. I'm not sure how yet, but I'm convinced this line must reference the four states.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2014
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  10.  
    Remedy

    Remedy Eat, Sleep, Write, Repeat

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    Finished the book yesterday.

    I read all this thread. Loads of cool theories. Here's one of mine...

    I saw one mention of the similarity between Denna's name and Denner Resin. Could Denna be a secret sweet-eater...? bare with me:

    I've seen people ask about the significance of the whole Trebon jaunt in TNoTW, besides the Chandrian-pot business. Later in that segment, one chapter ends with Kvothe talking about the tragedy that occurs the next day with Denna. It was strong language that went beyond the brief fear of her overdose on denner resin, I believe that the real tragedy is Kvothe's realisation that, that episode was the beginning of her addiction.

    Later encounters with Denna start to describe her white teeth and red lips. Her stretching business on the rock in the water (near end of TWMF) was quite reminiscent of the denner resin effects in Trebon. Also, she burst into that pub, short for breath - another side effect of denner resin.

    If she is an addict who hides it from Kvothe, her patron could be supplying her with the drug - effectively strengthening his control over her.

    I'm also reminded of the story about the woman who strips in the snow, for the sailor to give her some of the drug. Denna's patron could beat her and do what he likes to her if he is the supply for her habit. This could be a strong device for setting up Denna's betrayal of Kvothe.

    Any takers? :)
     
  11.  
    Jo Zebedee

    Jo Zebedee Come away, oh human child - Waters and the Wild

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    I find her an almighty pain in the ass. Is that just me?

    Anyhow - yes, I think the hints are certainly there that she's a sugar eater. I think there's a fine line being trodden as to how long it can possibly be until our hero, who is so noteably dense about her anyway, can notice. For me, it's getting close to pushing it...
     
  12.  
    Boneman

    Boneman Well-Known Member

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    Nah... Bast mentions that he saw her once and you know she's the love of Kvothe's life, I'm pretty certain Bast would be very dismissive of her if she were an addict. It keeps niggling me, the way she turns up in his life, from start to finish, all the time, and I feel she's watching him, possibly for AN Other. Patrick has invested way too much time, for her NOT to be a major player, somehow.

    I do get tired of the interraction between them, and whilst I'm happy she will be the one who betrays him, shattering his life, I just wish they'd move beyond the 'innocent-not-quite-lovers' they still act out. When's the next book out, again?:whistle:
     
  13.  
    Remedy

    Remedy Eat, Sleep, Write, Repeat

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    Me too. I wish he'd gone for Fela. But then it would've been a very short love story.

    Denna seemed to play with Kvothe, and unbelievably he's written to not mind very much. Too many mind games. That's some tension that urgently needs releasing early in book 3.
     
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