Wise Man's Fear (Contains Spoilers)

Discussion in 'Patrick Rothfuss' started by IlliferThePenniless, Mar 9, 2011.

  1. Efe

    Efe New Member

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    Hi guys, I hope this thread is not dead, I just finished reading the book, since I was waiting it to be released on my native language and now I just can't stop searching all over the internet for theories, and I realy like most of what I found here. I was soooo sure of Kvothe being Meluan's nephew, but you got a point, Denna fits perfectly as her sister, specialy because although never said it's implied the Lackless that ran away is Meluan's younger sister. Now I'm confused >.<

    I actualy think that if Denna's patron is Cinder it'd be much more predictable then Bredon. There's too many Chandrian references around Denna. I think Bredon is an Amyr and he's training Denna, that'd explain Ctaeh's comment on the Maer being closer to the Amyr then he knows AND how Denna could beat the buggler at the alley. The Ctaeh says Denna's patron is sadist and beats her for pleasure, and we know he doesnt lie, but we also know that the Amyr can do everything for the greater good. Now think with me... if Bredon is a human Amyr and he's training an apprentice, you'd expect him to have some fun at the training, because of course, he's human. Who wouldn't if you had the excuse you could do anything for the greater good? He beats her for fun WHILE training her. It fits.
    About Denna's song, it might be a trap to lure the Chandrian... I'm not sure yet... need ideas on this...

    Now a clarification for the Jax/Iax/Haliax:

    Jax and Iax are obviously the same person, only that Jax's story is the kid's version of Iax's story that leads to the creation war. We also know that Iax eventualy gets sealed behind the doors of stone (or something like that) which means he couldn't be the Chandrian, who's traveling the world doing bad things randomly. Also, there's a quote from Selitos in Skarpi's tale that he tells Lanre (Lanre = Haliax, that we know for sure) the only people powerful enough in naming to be compared to himself would be Lyra, RandomNameIForgot and Iax. That said, the Chandrian is not Iax and did not capture the moon.
     
  2. Boneman

    Boneman Well-Known Member

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    Hi Efe, and welcome to the Chrons. The thing that puzzled me, regarding the Cthaeh, is Bast's volcanic reaction to the fact that Kvothe actually got there by getting past the Sithe - 'I can't for all the salt in me guess how you slipped past them, Reshi.' and then he says 'Their oldest and most important charge is to keep the Cthaeh from having any contact with anyone. With anyone.'

    Now the Sithe are what the Chandrian fear, and the Chandrian seem to have some pretty impressive powers, so my conclusion would be that Kvothe was allowed to get to the tree, because the Sithe already know who he is, and presumably the part he is going to play in defeating the Chandrian is that important, they know they had to leave him alive. And who knows? Maybe in book three we'll find that Bast is Sithe... We know he's trying to revive the 'old' Kvothe, and Patrick may be leading us astray by allowing us to think it's because, as Bast says to Chronicler at the end of NOTW; I just want my Reshi back. I want him back the way he was. Let's face it, Bast isn't going to reveal anything to him, is he? He's a Fae, living in the human world, and he can look after himself admirably...

    I'm still uncertain about Denna, but beginning to think that actually Kvothe and she may be related closely, which would account for the reason they've not been allowed (by Patrick) to sleep together. Let's face it, he's working incredibly hard to keep the 'love story' a major part of the story as a whole, and after Felurian, he still hasn't slept with Denna...
     
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  3. Efe

    Efe New Member

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    Hi Boneman, thank you for the welcome.
    About the Sithe, I must admit something's off with them. If your theory is right how do the Sithe know about him? As far as we know the only one who can see the future is the Ctaeh and letting the saviour of the world talk to him would be a BIG mistake. If for some obscure reason they believed Kvothe was some kind of hero that'd kill the Chandrian they could just have stopped him instead of killing him. But they didn't do anything. Something hapenned there.

    Felurian was surprised Kvothe talked to the Ctaeh but not surprised the Sithe didn't kill him, in fact she doesn't even mention the Sithe! She might know something or maybe her magic hides her from them and Kvothe got some of that magic by spending so much time with her.
     
  4. CCN

    CCN Member

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    Hello all!
    I was just doing a re-listening of TWMF and got the idea to go back to TNOTW for research into PR's wicked little game with his readers...
    So here's what i got so far [I'm posting only the things for which i gathered all my data, although i have many other things in development...]
    1. Kvothe is in his middle 20's. This is supported by chronicler's impression that Kvothe is "certainly not thirty. Not even near thirty. Young for an inkeeper". After that, chronicler is trying to convince Kote to tell the storry and the following exchange takes place:

    Kote shook his head. “It was a long time ago—”
    “Not even two years,” Chronicler protested.

    so i think it's safe to assume that i'm right.

    2. I saw that many people here are wondering where exactly is The Waystone Inn. In the beginning of TNOWT it is revealed that the town's name is Newarre. doesn't it sound like nowhere? just a thought...

    3. also found something rather disturbing... Kote mentions when he begins to tell his story that
    “In the beginning, as far as I know, the world was spun out of the nameless void by Aleph, who gave everything a name. Or, depending on the version of the tale, found the names all things already possessed.”
    then we have
    Selitos knew that in all the world there were only three people who could match his skill in names: Aleph, Iax, and Lyra. in Skarpi's first story
    and then in his second story
    “…Selitos One-Eye stood forward and said, “Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel?” Aleph said, “No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth.”
    in the story of how the Amyr were formed

    4. Also in this story we find out that Tehlu is one of the Amyr, the real ones i mean, not the church order and actually he is the most powerful of them. [I tend to believe that Skarpi doesn't lie about these things].
    But Tehlu stood forward saying, “I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you.” He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides.

    None but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril. They mete out justice to the world, and Tehlu is the greatest of them all

    5. If you remember when Lanre dies and Lyra brings him back, it was after he had defeated the beast with scales of iron, who's breath was a darkness that smothered men
    now we know that the draccus has scales that consist mostly of iron and can breathe blue flame witch to me sounds like a gas so it would asphyxiate men... and since the beast was present in the creation war which was fought between, as Felurien put i, the old knowers and the shaper, i'm thinking that the shapers created a species of creature which would later be known as or develop into today's "common draccus... just a theory...
    so bye and here's hoping that the thread is not dead.... i'll come back with more and sorry for the long post....
     
  5. Efe

    Efe New Member

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    Hello CCN,
    I'd be glad to hear more of your theories, here are some considerations of the ones you posted:

    1- Nice catch there, Kvothe's age at the frame story was bothering me!

    2- There's a post in thor about speculation on the exact location of the inn, guess I'll just paste it here:
    An argument for why Newarre is in western Vintas (and associated corollaries):

    The location of Kvothe’s hiding place Newarre is one of the ongoing questions in the series (Thanks a lot, stupid map!). Its location was discussed in some of the earliest threads with most people pointing out the obvious homonymic pun that Newarre is “Nowhere,” but the only real suggestion I saw given for its location was that Newarre is in the western Commonwealth.

    I think this is wrong and I will elaborate why, instead, Newarre is most likely in western Vintas, probably on the southern border of the Eld.

    The first piece of evidence we have is Kvothe/Kote’s admission that the Scrael come from the east and his surprise that they’ve “made it this far west yet.” He “thought the mountains –“ presumably would have stopped them or slowed them down.

    Looking at the map, we see that the only significant mountain ranges that could have held them back are the Stormwal mountains in the far east and possibly the Eastern Cealdish range. Mountains in the Commonwealth are on the western shore (and Newarre is clearly not a port community) and none in Yll appear to run north-south.

    C12VT in Thread 1 pointed out this suggests a far western location, but I think that’s a slight overreaction. More likely is the idea that he’s decently west of a mountain range (or that the mountain range is westerly), rather than on the other side of the continent.

    This leaves us with three countries that border a sizable mountain range: Ceald, Modeg and Vintas.

    We can rule out Ceald because a) no one appears to be speaking Siaru (unless they all are and Kvothe isn’t mentioning it) and b) “grown Cealdish men don’t give away money. . . . They don’t even buy things if they can help it” (NotW, 223). This isn’t behavior we’ve noticed in Newarre. Also, I haven’t noticed any descriptions of the “ruddy complexion and dark hair and eyes” that characterizes a full-blooded Ceald (NotW, 226).

    Here are the arguments for why it’s Vintas:

    The smith’s prentice states that the “king’s coin” is not “a silver noble” but “a whole gold royal” (WMF, 18). The soldiers who attack Kvothe learns of his apparent wealth by asking to break a gold coin, a “whole royal.” (WMF, 891). This is confirmed to be Vintish coin when Kvothe discusses having “two gold royals, four silver nobles …” after being dismissed by the Maer (WMF, 927). We know that “beer is three shims and a private room costs copper,” but that doesn’t provide us with much as “shim” appears to be used generically to mean a small amount of money (NotW, 44).

    Chronicler carries a “whole silver talent … in a jar of ink,” but he travels extensively and, as he noted, it’s more a “luck piece” (NotW, 20-21).

    Next, Bast has on his shelf “[r]ings of horn and leather and woven grass” (WMF, 985). Coincidentally, those are the exact three examples used by Bredon to describe how the common folk (presumably of Vintas) use rings. “A young lover might give a ring of new green grass to someone he was courting. A ring of leather promises service … A ring of horn shows enmity … Profound and lasting enmity” (WMF, 444). *Aside: Wonderful speculation as to who owes Bast service and who holds a vendetta against him.

    Now why I believe Newarre is on the Southern edge of the Eld.

    This is going to be accomplished by a curious triangulation.

    First, Kvothe, when he first meets Chronicler at the Inn, asks him, “How is the road to Tinue?” We know this is an idiomatic expression (NotW, 273), but Chronicler reaction is confusion, followed by “I wasn’t heading to Tinue.” This implies that they are currently somewhere close enough to Tinue for that expression to be literally askable.

    Second, when Kvothe fakes having a bum knee in the beginning of NotW, he mentions that he got the “wound” “on my way through the Eld three summers ago. … It’s what made me give up the good life on the road” (NotW, 29). Counterpoint: the farmer that gives Kvothe a ride to Tarbean mentions “this side of the Eld” as an idiomatic expression, so the giant forest is well known.

    Third, when Abenthy is talking to Arliden and Netalia, he asks them what the village-folk are afraid of. In Vintas, they reply “Fae” and “Draugar,” neither of which we’ve seen mentioned by the villagers in Newarre. They are scared of demons, however, much like the people of Trebon. According to Arliden, people in Atur are scared in demons.

    So we’re looking for somewhere that’s in Vintas, near Atur, Tinue and the Eld, which gives us a small jutting of land south of the Eld, bordering the Small Kingdoms, but quite close to the Aturan Empire. It also is fairly west of the Stormwal Mountains.

    A counterpoint: When talking about the bleeders, Chronicler mentions that his father hates them as much as the common folk, which would imply that he’s Vintish. This is never really suggested, but never disproven. Also, note that while there is rampant speculation that Lochees is related to “Lack-keys” and “Loeclos,” they aren’t mentioned in Caduceus’ list of family splits.

    A fun corollary that could be support: It’s fairly common to assume that Kvothe kills Ambrose, who has ascended to the throne of Vintas. If this is the cause of the current civil war with the Penitent King fighting rebels (NotW, 16), as Kvothe somewhat implies (“I’m responsible for everyone who dies in this stupid war” (WMF, 23)). This also explains why the common people would refer to him as Kingkiller (and why his ransom would “a thousand royals and a duchy [so Vintas has Dukes…]” (WMF, 20).

    Taken together, I feel fairly certain that Newarre is in Vintas and has attempted to place its location.


    3- Yes, it seems like Aleph is some kind of major god or something like that.

    4- Tehlu sure is an intresting character, there's even a theory that he's the man that opens Jax's pack on the kid version of the creation war. He might have helped Iax mess everything up on the real story.

    5- I also noticed that, but I don't wanna believe Kvothe was able to defeat a beast that killed even Lanre xD
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2012
  6. CCN

    CCN Member

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    Hi Efe!
    Thanks for the clarification! if you could give me the link to that discussion i would be grateful. Also, about the draccus, i don't really think that it could be the beast that killed Lanre, but it might have evolved into the draccus since it was obviously created for the war... also, Lanre tried to take it on with a sword.... Kvothe just dropped a great weight on it and drugged it. I wouldn't hurry to take on an elephant with a sword, but dropping a great weight on it AFTER i had also put enough poison into it, would do the trick. I'm not saying it'e elegant but it IS effective.

    just stumbled onto another piece of evidence that the church's belief system is based on the Amyr. When Nina brings Kvothe the drawing of the chandrian she mentions that she didn't scrape out the name of Tehlu's angels. We than have the names of two angels [the ones on the Amyr's shoulders, Andan and Ordal] which we know from Skarpi's story are two of the Amyr... This makes me wonder about Skarpi A LOT. Who is he? How come he knows so much? Does he have a power similar to the Cthaeh, only he knows the past instead of the future? Is he human?

    Also, it seems to me that the demons the church speaks of are creatures of the Fae... from their description, their reaction to iron and the way Encanis speaks, they sound like creatures of the fae, only not the "nice" ones... [as much as Fae creatures can be nice]
     
  7. CCN

    CCN Member

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    Found a bit of the story that would support the theory that denna is the Lockless lost sister. At the ending of TWMS when Kvothe and Denna have their outing she "listens" to a stone and then tells Kvothe the story of the stone, about the boy who cast the stones away from him and cast the girl away "unmindful of any falling she might feel", then she goes on about the stone [although i feel it is an analogy about the girl = herself] "It knows the feel of motion. It has trouble staying the way most stones do. It takes the offer that the water makes and moves sometimes" "When it moves it thinks about the boy."
    I think she is telling Kvothe about the Edema boy she ran away with...
    Just a an ideea
     
  8. williamjm

    williamjm Well-Known Member

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    I think it's pretty certain that Netalia Lackless was Kvothe's mother - see the "Not Tally A Lot Less" song Arliden sings about her, there are posts about it earlier in the thread.
     
  9. CCN

    CCN Member

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    Actually the following quote makes me think that Netalia is younger than Meluan. also, Meluan's powerful hatred suggests that it is rather recent. If it had happened 17-18 years ago, the hatred wouldn't be so raw

    by the time I read that young Netalia Lackless had run away with a troupe of traveling performers. Her parents had disowned her, of course, leaving Meluan the only heir to the Lackless lands.
     
  10. Boneman

    Boneman Well-Known Member

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    And yet in NOTW Kvothe talks of vague memories of visiting rich relatives when he was very very young... But if Bredon has summat to do with the Chandrian, could it be him who called them to kill the whole troupe? Remove all lackless heirs? It always assumed (because Kvothe tells us) it was because his father was composing a song about them. Denna composes a song about Lanre and the Chandrian don't appear. I'm becoming kinda suspicious about Denna, the way she appears just as Kvothe becomes visible on the radar, so to speak, by leaving the city for the university, and turning up so many times to check on Kvothe. My money is still on her doing the betraying...
     
  11. Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    Lots of great speculation on here, but I got lazy at page 4. Forgive me if this has already been said.

    First, I like the idea of Kvothe being a lost son of the Lackless family. Makes sense. This means we are probably all wrong.


    Second, as for the Amyr being near the Maer, anybody thought about Stopes? They are in hiding, after all, but influencing events. What better position than one like Stopes?
     
  12. williamjm

    williamjm Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with your interpretation of the quote, it says Netalia was young when she ran away, which could have been a long time ago, and if her leaving made Meluan the heir then that implies she was older than Meluan. People can hold grudges for 17 years as well, if they feel strongly enough about them.

    Denna's song isn't accurate, which may be a crucial difference. I assume that Kvothe's father stumbled on something the Chandrian wanted hidden and that's why they wanted to kill him.
     
  13. CCN

    CCN Member

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    williamjm, you're right about kvothe's father. Here's proof:

    Names are the key. Real names. Deep names. And I have been avoiding them for just that reason. My father was a great one for details. He had been asking questions and digging up old stories about the Chandrian for years. I expect he stumbled onto a few of their old names and worked them into his song. . . .” Understanding washed over Chronicler’s face. “. . . and then rehearsed it again and again.”

    And Boneman has reminded me of another fact that i consider as evidence against Kvothe being the Lackless heir. If the "grudge" is so powerful, would Netalia go to her parents, with an illegitimate son from a trouper, that said trouper and the entire troupe? And better still, would the Lackless family, one of the most powerful families in Vintas, not DO anything about it? Wouldn't they force their daughter to stay home? wouldn't they kill the edema SOB who stole their daughter?
     
  14. CCN

    CCN Member

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    Sorry about the underline! didn't see it until I posted
     
  15. Tekkie

    Tekkie New Member

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    I am enjoying this thread a great deal. However, I am still in the process of reading it. For now, I have a few ideas. Some have been posted. Some, I believe, have not.

    First, someone referenced the similarity of Denna's name, and the word Denner, as in the resin. When reading these books, I noticed after her accidental ingestion of the Denner poison, Kvothe's descriptions of Denna always included a passing reference to her white teeth. I do not believe mentioned that before the Denner incident, as he always does when he chances upon her afterwards. I have imagined the use of Denner resin to be some sort of control over Denna. Who is wielding the control, I do not know.

    Secondly, the Maer's poisoning, and the reference to the Amyr that is/are near him. I feel that those two things are connected. Firstly, the Amyr work for the greater good. Could they be responsible for the poisoning? Perhaps to keep him from marrying the Lackless Daughter? Could they be there trying to protect him from it? I think the former, but have no evidence. That is just a guess. Also, my first conclusion was that Stapes was an Amyr. Again, I have no evidence to present in that regard. I am just stating my initial impression. As has been mentioned, I believe the Amyr will play out to be hidden in plain sight. I also believe that the Chandrian, and/or Amyr are involved with the university. My main bit of evidence for that is Denna's constant presence in Imre, so near the university.

    Thirdly, I would like to float the idea that Kvothe's in tact powers have been hinted at. There have been several posts regarding his strength (the incident with Bast and the Chronicler, and his fight with the first soldier). Beyond that, an additional piece of evidence was presented when the scrael was brought into the Inn. Kote seems intent on confirming the belief of the townsfolk. Their belief, of course, that it is a demon. He takes a piece of iron, and touches the scrael. The contact between the iron and the scrael produces a sound. I believe it was described as a snap, or crackle. I took this to mean that Kote was performing some sort of sympathy. That, from the beginning, led me to believe that he was purposefully refraining from using his powers. I will admit, however, that after being reminded of Kvothe's promise to Denna "on his name and power", I am wondering if my theory of his in tact power is correct.

    I hope that there are a couple original thoughts in this. As I said, I have not read the whole thread, but plan too. I apologize for not waiting until I had done so. I finished WMF today, and just could not contain myself when I started reading your replies.
     
  16. valkener

    valkener Member

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    Here's my take. The Maer plays an important role and is more than he pretends to be. I say this because the Cthaeh tells Kvothe to stay close to him. Whether it's the Maer's wife or the Maer himself - one of them is either connected to the Chandrian or the Amyr. And by close I mean very close.

    I believe the Cthaeh is ultimately of great help to Kvothe even though it is manipulative it still speaks the truth and Kvothe, clever as he is, is able to use it's information for his own benefit (even though he will forever be in doubt of whether it helped him or not, which could also be the reason for him withdrawing to the Waystone Inn).

    Like others have pointed out, I am also certain that Denna's patron is one of the Chandrian, if not even Cinder.

    I've watched some of Patrick's interviews after reading through this thread and from his reactions and answers to some fan questions I came up with the above. Of course, pure speculation based on my own interpretation and gut feeling.

    I'd be interested in some recommendations. I really enjoyed "The Wise Man's Fear" because of the wittiness. I like smart antiheroes (though not too much of the anti, of course). I also like a lot of bloody action, though not too much gore. I've read LOTR, HP, many Michael Stackpole novels (his fantasy novels are pretty good imo).
     
  17. Grunkins

    Grunkins Couch Commander

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    All these theories are very interesting.

    I have no idea how Rothfuss is going to wrap this up in one final volume. Also, he's said the third book will be shorter than WMF. It's going to be very content heavy. There are so many threads to tie off it seems like there will be a resolution on every page. And I'm wrapped up in the "current day" story too, will we get redemption/resolution for innkeeper Kovthe as well? I have to assume so. I can't wait to see how all of this is pulled off.
     
  18. Boneman

    Boneman Well-Known Member

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    Shorter? Really? He originally wrote a million words and so far we've had 600,000, and he added 100,000 to WMF.

    I keep coming back to the 'I was betrayed' that is used in NOTW and on all blurbs for the books, when Kvothe off-handedly is sarcastic with Chronicler. So: who could betray him?

    Denna, without a doubt.
    Not the fae, or Bast wouldn't be with him.
    One of the other people he trusts: that leaves his friends at University, the teachers at University and possibly Skarpi (must be some interaction coming, because Kvothe says to Chronicler in NOTW when his name comes up: "I might have guessed he would be the first to find me.") Since the only time we saw Skarpi was as the storyteller in the pub, when Kvothe was in Tarbean, and he says: "I have friends in the church who can help me" he must be connected with the Amyr. So I expect Kvothe to have some interaction with Skarpi in book three, otherwise what he says to Chronicler is nonsense.

    My money is still on Denna - she's the only one who could make him lose everything - spirit, heart and soul.

    How long do we have to wait to find out? :mad:
     
  19. Clansman

    Clansman Lochaber Axeman, QC

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    Well, we only got WMF in March 2011. Be patient, laddie. If he hasn't released it by the end of 2013, you can start getting huffy.

    If you want a real adventure in patience, head over to the GRRM forum, and wait for The Winds of Winter. That's going to take at least half a decade.
     
  20. valkener

    valkener Member

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    I've been reading Name of the Wind again - and I am becoming more and more convinced that Elodin is the Amyr or close to him. Elodin knows the name of the wind & stone, he was chancellor of the university and the youngest student to ever be admitted?
     
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