Wise Man's Fear (Contains Spoilers)

Boneman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
5,365
Location
Working with the Bare Bones of talent
I doubt it - it would be reported to the Maer that the king was wandering in and out, wouldn't it, when Bredon was visiting Kvothe?

But back to Denna and the possibility of a chandrian mentor. In NOTW, Denna says of him "We never meet in the same place twice, and never in public. Sometimes he'll set up a meeting and never show up for it." and then later talks about how incredibly secretive he is. But she goes to the wedding to sing because "He's the reason I'm here. He told me to show up at this wedding."

And when Patrick doesn't want us to know something, he doesn't discuss it: He has a way of signalling me. A way of letting me know he's around. I excused myself and found him over by the barn. And Kvothe doesn't even ask what it is.... She's in a the farm surrounded by the Mauthens and there's a signal which only she picks up and goes out. Within Patrick's very well delineated world, that had to be a magical signal, didn't it? Because Kvothe didn't ask and didn't even think about what the signal might be, but just accepted it, I'm kinda thinking he was trying not to give the game away.
 

kole

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
19
Maybe the signal is one of those of Chandrians. Rotting wood, blue flame etc.
 

IlliferThePenniless

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
285
I also thought that Bredon could be the one that earned Kvothe the tittle "king killer" but if he was the king wouldn't they know for his ring?
That's just the thing though, Bredon is very circumspect about his social standing. Maybe someone can set me straight here, but we have no idea where Bredon ranks do we? We can safely assume he's been around a while, and he hints that he used to have more influence than he does now. He seems mostly bemused by all the games of court, it wouldn't shock me to discover that he's actually pretty high up in the line of succession.
 

Zerl

New Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
1
Hey there,

I hope this thread is still alive :) I just finished reading of TWMF (second time) and I'm, like the most of you, convinced that Bredon ..
1) is Dennas Patron
2) has something to do with the Chandrian or is even Cinder himself because he specifically asked Denna in TNOTW how many people were at the wedding before everybody died (and for other obvious reasons).

But I'm not so sure that Kvothe is the nephew of Lady Lackless. Actually, I believe that DENNA is the missing sister.
1) First, there's the age difference between Kvothes mother and Meluan. The Maer is 40 and he's looking for a wife that "must be young enough to produce an heir. Several if possible". He sais Meluan is "educated. Young. Beautiful.". At my best guess, Meluan must be between 18 - 25 years old. Kvothe is already 16 (or 17?), so the age difference between the two sisters would have been rather big (at least 7 years - if his mother ran off at 15 and was immediately pregnant). Denna would be a much better fit, especially if she is the (slightly younger) sister of Meluan (it's mentioned in TNOTW that she's a bit older than Kvothe), she's well educated and she ran off her family...
Not convincing enough? Ok:

2) "She told me my father had lured her away from "a miserable dreary hell" with sweet music and sweeter words.I could only assume she meant Three Crossings, where we went to visit relatives when I was very young."
Ok, this is also rather weak. But listen to me three times:

3) Kvothe describes Meluan: "She was striking lovely, with a strong jaw and brown eyes .. pale skin, artfully curled chestnut hair. Her mouth was full and red without the benefit of any paint. The line of her neck was proud and graceful."
Don't you remember Kvothe going on and on about Dennas graceful neck, her chestnut hair, her dark eyes, fair skin and especially about her lips being red without being painted? And the use of the word "lovely" - that's the Yllish story-knot that Denna wears in her hair in Tarbean. Oh, what, wait, Yllish? My my, the lockless Lackless-Box has yllish story-knots carved all over it... Denna seems to know the language rather well (you're supposed to read them with your fingers...).

....let's have a look a the song:

Seven thing stand before
The entrance to the Lackless Door
One of them a ring unworn
because Denna has the ring with the blue gem, Meluan can't wear it.
One a word that is forsworn
because nobody mentions Dennas name (she herself keeps changing it)
One a time that must be right
No idea...
One a candle without light
Either...
One a son who brings the blood
Now that one is tricky. Because Kvothe can't be considered the "son" anymore. Maybe Kvothe kills the Maer's son in the next book? Just a wild guess..
One a door that holds the flood
I'd also say the door at the archive. It might be the same door the Maers Archanist mentions (he doesn't talk about a lockless box, but a lockless door!)
One a thing tight held in keeping
That also sounds like a "secret of the heart". Maybe Dennas secret about her past, or Kvothes secret about his?
Then comes that which comes with sleeping
Denna's always having bad dreams when she sleeps...

I think it would be too easy if Kvothe's mum was Meluans sister. And I bet PR must have had a lot of fun writing the scene where Kvothe and Denna are "in the bushes" in the Maers garden with her sister just walking by without the reader knowing it... (if you re-read the scene you'll also see that Denna is putting her hand over her mouth, Kvothe thinks it's because she's trying to hide her laughing but you could also read it otherwise...).

I hope I made a valid argument :p
 

Perpetual Man

Tim James
Supporter
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
6,301
Hi Zerl,

Welcome to the Chrons.

I hope the thread is still alive, I think it's one of those that lapses for a while until the next round of people finish the book, or the next debate begins.

I was really impressed by your theory concerning Denna, well argued and quite convincing in it's own way. It's certainly given us something else to think about...

I'm sure some of the others will be along with some of their own theories and responses, but I liked it!
 

G-Zeus

Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
7
Hey there,

I hope this thread is still alive :) I just finished reading of TWMF (second time) and I'm, like the most of you, convinced that Bredon ..
1) is Dennas Patron
2) has something to do with the Chandrian or is even Cinder himself because he specifically asked Denna in TNOTW how many people were at the wedding before everybody died (and for other obvious reasons).

But I'm not so sure that Kvothe is the nephew of Lady Lackless. Actually, I believe that DENNA is the missing sister.
1) First, there's the age difference between Kvothes mother and Meluan. The Maer is 40 and he's looking for a wife that "must be young enough to produce an heir. Several if possible". He sais Meluan is "educated. Young. Beautiful.". At my best guess, Meluan must be between 18 - 25 years old. Kvothe is already 16 (or 17?), so the age difference between the two sisters would have been rather big (at least 7 years - if his mother ran off at 15 and was immediately pregnant). Denna would be a much better fit, especially if she is the (slightly younger) sister of Meluan (it's mentioned in TNOTW that she's a bit older than Kvothe), she's well educated and she ran off her family...
Not convincing enough? Ok:

2) "She told me my father had lured her away from "a miserable dreary hell" with sweet music and sweeter words.I could only assume she meant Three Crossings, where we went to visit relatives when I was very young."
Ok, this is also rather weak. But listen to me three times:

3) Kvothe describes Meluan: "She was striking lovely, with a strong jaw and brown eyes .. pale skin, artfully curled chestnut hair. Her mouth was full and red without the benefit of any paint. The line of her neck was proud and graceful."
Don't you remember Kvothe going on and on about Dennas graceful neck, her chestnut hair, her dark eyes, fair skin and especially about her lips being red without being painted? And the use of the word "lovely" - that's the Yllish story-knot that Denna wears in her hair in Tarbean. Oh, what, wait, Yllish? My my, the lockless Lackless-Box has yllish story-knots carved all over it... Denna seems to know the language rather well (you're supposed to read them with your fingers...).

....let's have a look a the song:

Seven thing stand before
The entrance to the Lackless Door
One of them a ring unworn
because Denna has the ring with the blue gem, Meluan can't wear it.
One a word that is forsworn
because nobody mentions Dennas name (she herself keeps changing it)
One a time that must be right
No idea...
One a candle without light
Either...
One a son who brings the blood
Now that one is tricky. Because Kvothe can't be considered the "son" anymore. Maybe Kvothe kills the Maer's son in the next book? Just a wild guess..
One a door that holds the flood
I'd also say the door at the archive. It might be the same door the Maers Archanist mentions (he doesn't talk about a lockless box, but a lockless door!)
One a thing tight held in keeping
That also sounds like a "secret of the heart". Maybe Dennas secret about her past, or Kvothes secret about his?
Then comes that which comes with sleeping
Denna's always having bad dreams when she sleeps...

I think it would be too easy if Kvothe's mum was Meluans sister. And I bet PR must have had a lot of fun writing the scene where Kvothe and Denna are "in the bushes" in the Maers garden with her sister just walking by without the reader knowing it... (if you re-read the scene you'll also see that Denna is putting her hand over her mouth, Kvothe thinks it's because she's trying to hide her laughing but you could also read it otherwise...).

I hope I made a valid argument :p
Zerl I beleive you are right, i had a tough time thinking about the age difference and it would have been too easy if kvothe's mom had been a lochless, but Denna, that's something interesting, you are a real genius :)

Welcome to the forum
 

harvv

New Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Messages
1
just registered to post in here but it didnt go through for some reason...NoTW and WMF are possibly the best two books ive read in several years and ive really enjoyed reading all the ideas being tossed around in here many(most <_<) of which i completely missed. Just wanted to share some of my own and see if anyone is still talking about the book.

This first bit is not mine though i saw it somewhere else and thought it was great thinking

Auri is the Moon (she comes out at night and travels to the Underthing during the day)
Elodin is Manet - using two different Names (using the same questions at both the Eolian and during entrance testing)<----this one i thought was veryyyy interesting
Kvothe lost his power when he swore to Denna not to investigate her patron (he swore on his Name, his Power and his Left Hand

Soooo a few of my own ideas.
Timeline - A lot of people are surprised that not much has happened and we are already on the third book....but you have to remember whenever Kote is being described he is described as being young in his 20's but looks old and worn because of the lines on his face etc....so my idea is that we might possibly finish the story 3/4 of the way through the 3rd book and the end of the story might have only been like 2-5 years before Chronicler decided to find Kvothe. A few years gives him enough time i think to blend in...implanting himself in the local town and becoming a common person to everyone there.
His powers - I think the whole losing his powers because of changing his name is definitely where its at. As mentioned Elodin FLIPS when Kvothe tells him a friend is changing her name every week or whatever....this would make sense in that it would cause something terrible to happen if one were to change their name(Having it locked in the box similar to the name of the Moon story with Jax or whatever his name is) I dont think it has so much to do with just calling himself Kote...that most just to fall off the radar and i really like how someone referred back to kilvins saying about how Kote meant disaster. At first i had this idea in my head that there was something possibly not right about Chronicler and that Kvothe was not showing his powers because he didnt want Chronicler to see his strength or something that would end up with Kote revealing that he knew who the Chronicler really was(possibly working/scouting for the Chandrian to find the man who had been hunting them), but ive definitely not given that a second thought now lol.
[on the chronicler idea above] - at first i discounted this idea due to the fact that the Chandrian wouldnt need any help in finding someone(seeing as how they magically appeared to kill Kvothes parents)...but i also thought that IFFF they were searching for him, they could have a difficult time tracking him down due to the fact that he changed his NAME name(or possibly locked it in the box similar to Jax and the moon....thus hiding it from anyone trying to learn it, including himself seeing as how he cant get into it).
The Amyr - Im at a loss as to who i think the Amyr close to the Maer might be....at first i thought it was the Maers soldier who he warns would just kill and destroy everything to get his target...this seems to halfway fit the Amyr in that they do whatever it takes to get their job done....but it doesnt follow their other philosophy in that they always do what they think is for the greater good of the peoples(the Amyr dont seem to be the type to take orders from anyone ESPECIALLY if these orders could lead to them doing something wrong in their eyes). So this leads me to assume most of the Amyr must now be people with power or at least in positions where their actions arent really controlled by anyone(masters of the university) Elodin MUST be associated with the Amyr in some way....hes just too all around BAMF to not be...possibly Lorren as well
Lorren - Okay so i have mixed ideas about Lorren....
. [1]My first is that he is associated with the amyr. He seems to be in the prime position for getting rid of info on the Amyr from the largest library in the world.(Puppet also in this position...the puppet character is very interesting to me, i hope we see more of him). And i also coudl think he is stashing information on the Chandrian/Amyr behind that vault door in his library. Id say he would be hiding it there because he knows what has come of people [mentioning/even looking for] the names of the Chandrian...as well as keeping public knowledge of the Amyr to a minimum.
. [2]My 2nd probably more wrong idea was that Lorren is associated with the Chandrian...considering they are somehow disposing of all information about themselves and Lorren leads the largest most extensive library ever.
The Amyr are one of the most interesting parts of the book for me...all the mystery behind them is great.
Also ELODIN...WTF....hes possibly the BAMFest person ever. He noticed Kvothes cloak immediately(he knows a lot about the fae).....He makes Ademre hand gestures without even thinking about it(he knows a lot about ademre)...hell....he seems to know a lot about everything and i think hes the coolest character in the books by far, all the scenes with him in them are just exponentially more awesome than all the others.
 

nerdwithme

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
2
I'm on my 2nd time through WMF. Listening to it this time and I've picked up a lot more this time around than I did the first time I read it. After reading a fair amount about Rothfuss's writing style and learning that he does not waste words, I've been listening to deeper meanings in the dialogs between characters.

Two conversations caught me by surprise, then a third.

While Kvothe is speaking with the Ctheath, the tree spirit mentions that Cinder 'may have done him wrong' in the past among other considerations for the tree to spill information about Cinder to Kvothe.

Fast forward a bit when Kvothe returns to Felurian and he tells her that he has spoken to the Ctheath... She inspects his eyes and and face and body checking for bites. Though she spends more time on the eyes.

The inference I took from this is that Cinder is described as having eyes like goats and black as ink and white hair.... If he crossed the Ctheath and it bit him. Would his physical appearance be the result of the bite? When Cinder speaks with Hailax in book one, Hailax mentions ' who keeps you safe from the Sithe'. If the Sithe track down and kill any one who has spoken to the Ctheath. etc etc. See where i'm going?
 

nerdwithme

New Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
2
My imagination swims with what dark things await in the third book. I see so many good theories.
 

hesathinker

New Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2011
Messages
1
Hey there,

I hope this thread is still alive :) I just finished reading of TWMF (second time) and I'm, like the most of you, convinced that Bredon ..
1) is Dennas Patron
2) has something to do with the Chandrian or is even Cinder himself because he specifically asked Denna in TNOTW how many people were at the wedding before everybody died (and for other obvious reasons).

But I'm not so sure that Kvothe is the nephew of Lady Lackless. Actually, I believe that DENNA is the missing sister.
1) First, there's the age difference between Kvothes mother and Meluan. The Maer is 40 and he's looking for a wife that "must be young enough to produce an heir. Several if possible". He sais Meluan is "educated. Young. Beautiful.". At my best guess, Meluan must be between 18 - 25 years old. Kvothe is already 16 (or 17?), so the age difference between the two sisters would have been rather big (at least 7 years - if his mother ran off at 15 and was immediately pregnant). Denna would be a much better fit, especially if she is the (slightly younger) sister of Meluan (it's mentioned in TNOTW that she's a bit older than Kvothe), she's well educated and she ran off her family...
Not convincing enough? Ok:

2) "She told me my father had lured her away from "a miserable dreary hell" with sweet music and sweeter words.I could only assume she meant Three Crossings, where we went to visit relatives when I was very young."
Ok, this is also rather weak. But listen to me three times:

3) Kvothe describes Meluan: "She was striking lovely, with a strong jaw and brown eyes .. pale skin, artfully curled chestnut hair. Her mouth was full and red without the benefit of any paint. The line of her neck was proud and graceful."
Don't you remember Kvothe going on and on about Dennas graceful neck, her chestnut hair, her dark eyes, fair skin and especially about her lips being red without being painted? And the use of the word "lovely" - that's the Yllish story-knot that Denna wears in her hair in Tarbean. Oh, what, wait, Yllish? My my, the lockless Lackless-Box has yllish story-knots carved all over it... Denna seems to know the language rather well (you're supposed to read them with your fingers...).

....let's have a look a the song:

Seven thing stand before
The entrance to the Lackless Door
One of them a ring unworn
because Denna has the ring with the blue gem, Meluan can't wear it.
One a word that is forsworn
because nobody mentions Dennas name (she herself keeps changing it)
One a time that must be right
No idea...
One a candle without light
Either...
One a son who brings the blood
Now that one is tricky. Because Kvothe can't be considered the "son" anymore. Maybe Kvothe kills the Maer's son in the next book? Just a wild guess..
One a door that holds the flood
I'd also say the door at the archive. It might be the same door the Maers Archanist mentions (he doesn't talk about a lockless box, but a lockless door!)
One a thing tight held in keeping
That also sounds like a "secret of the heart". Maybe Dennas secret about her past, or Kvothes secret about his?
Then comes that which comes with sleeping
Denna's always having bad dreams when she sleeps...

I think it would be too easy if Kvothe's mum was Meluans sister. And I bet PR must have had a lot of fun writing the scene where Kvothe and Denna are "in the bushes" in the Maers garden with her sister just walking by without the reader knowing it... (if you re-read the scene you'll also see that Denna is putting her hand over her mouth, Kvothe thinks it's because she's trying to hide her laughing but you could also read it otherwise...).

I hope I made a valid argument :p
I'm pleased that someone else noticed the age discrepancy and came to the same conclusion as myself. Also, in support of this argument, I believe there are a few times in WMSF that Denna mentions having loved a boy (man?) and had been thrown away, and appears to be quite bitter about it. How bitter would YOU be if you ran away from your family, wealth, and social status for a boy that then discarded you?

Just a thought.
 

cihank1

New Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1
Guys, there is a crime in Wise Man's Fear called "Wrongful Apprehension." Can someone please explain me what this is? I couldn't find a decent answer on the net.
 

Jesuscraig

New Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2011
Messages
1
Just a note, it probably wasn't "Jax" who stole the moon, he is the boy from the story with the tinker, but rather, it was "Iax" - the person who stole the moon after speaking to the Ctheath according to Bast. Seems awfully like "Haliax," also it fits with this being well before two thousand years ago.

Also, about the rumors Chronicler spook of, where people were describing Kvothe as a new Chandrian, I think we are looking at it the wrong way, I don't think this suggests that Kvothe killed all the Chandrian, or that he is another (eighth) but rather that he killed a single Chandrian (Cinder or Haliax, probably at the university), and people assume he took his place, not that I believe he really would. I believe this of course because Chandrian means seven, so it seems to only make sense that for the name to make sense, there must still be seven of them.
 

Boneman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
5,365
Location
Working with the Bare Bones of talent
Good thinking - might account for where the chandrian go when Halifax gathers them into his cloak - a sort-of parallel universe where he's captured the moon (in the same way the fae seem to live parallel?).

I'm kinda hoping he's killed them all, rather than just cinder, but it's a distinct possibility. Patrick's very good at being oblique, isn't he?
 

schooner

New Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
1
Hi all. I have a few ideas/questions

1) When it's Kvothe's turn for Interesting Fact, he mentions how the Adem have a secret art called the Lethani that make them such skilled fighters. Elodin dismisses the validity of this fact, as there's no substance to it. However, around a year later, Elodin uses Adem hand gestures with Kvothe when he learns that Kvothe has been to Ademre, which begs the question: how does he know Ademre (or at least the gestures) but not know the Lethani? I don't think he was playing dumb with Kvothe, and if he was just trying to keep the Lethani secret he would've said/done something else.

2) Bredon seems way too obvious to be Denna's patron. I haven't seen Rothfuss do something really obvious yet. Cinder makes more sense, especially when you take Denna's song into account. It paints Lanre as a hero, doesn't mention him being Haliax, and makes Selitos look evil. It also is apparently a very famous song, as Kvothe casually implies that it's a song everyone is familiar with. However, if you paint Bredon as being a Chandrian supporter and Denna's patron,it makes a bit more sense. Denna searched very hard to find the information for the song, and if Cinder was her patron, he would've been able to make it a lot easier for her and get the song done much more quickly. Also, where did she find the information and why did it mention everything up to Selitos stabbing his eye but still paint Lanre as a hero?

3) There's a lot of emphasis placed on Tak and Bredon's desire to play a "beautiful game". That has to be significant. Bredon also gets mad at Kvothe when he doesn't play well, almost like he's instructing him. It seems a little cruel of Bredon: he doesn't care about anything but the beauty of the game. Also, Kvothe mentions that he does much better at Tak after he comes back from his adventures despite having not played in a while. That also seems significant.

4) The idea of Denna being the Lockless sister is interesting and keeps in touch with Rothfuss not liking to be obvious. Dunno if this was mentioned though: Meluans' sister's name is confirmed as being Natalia Lockless. Kvothe's father is called by his name, Arliden, many times, but Kvothe's mother is never referred to by name, except possibly once. Also, Arliden sings a little song that goes like this

Dark Laurian, Arliden's wife,
Has a face like a blade of a knife
Has a voice like a prickledown burr
But can tally a sum like a moneylender.
My sweet Tally cannot cook.
But she keeps a tidy ledger-book
For all her faults I do confess
It's worth my life
To make my wife
Not tally a lot less...

It seems like he's calling his wife Laurian, but read the last line, which is rather nonsensical, out loud. Nottallia Lotless. Read that way, it seems a little more pun-ny, which is more in touch with Arliden, from my view. That's not to mention the fact that Arliden is a Ruh and they both joke about how he stole her from a noble's life and how she got upset when she heard Kvothe singing the Lackless song. It fits almost too perfectly. Oh, and that's the song that got Kvothe's mom so upset that she made him sleep under the wagon. According to Kvothe, it's because of the meter of the song.

5) What the Chtaeh said about the Amyr is driving me nuts. He said to stick with the Maer and he would take Kvothe right to their door, and then tells Kvothe to remember what he said so he can be struck by the Chtaeh's wit/intelligence/whatever. I'm gonna assume that Kvothe is done with the Maer, so that means the Maer already led him to the door of the Amyr. Does it have something to do with the Lockless box? Kvothe only got to see it because the Maer so heavily valued him.

6) Still wondering who Kvothe kills by the fountain in Imre. Maybe Ambrose? I can't remember who mentions that the cobblestones are still broken, but I remember him hesitating, like the murder was particularly significant. Perhaps he killed a Chandrian there? That would spook the guy.

7) Who sent the scrael? Kvothe appeared to be expecting them to come-he was surprised only by the fact that they were there so early. Why did the person who sent the scrael not come to kill Kvothe themselves? Also, I believe Rothfuss mentioned that the town where the Waystone is remains unidentified so far and there's a reason for that.
 
Top