Who was/is the best and worst maesters?

[xLORDSNOWx]

In my re read of AGOT i have come to like and dislike characters more and more. Maester Luwin for example appears to be inept in the theories of dragons, green dreams, giants, and etc. Now i understand that maybe 80% of the Westeros we know may not believe in Dragons, green dreams, giants, (basically all of the sci fi elements of ASOIAF). However, being that Maester Luwin pretty much shoots down all of these theories and revelations as false or unimportant when he is supposed to be one of the few maesters who have studied magic. Being so close to the North and the godswood, you would think he would be one that would know more about such.

To his defense, i guess it would be the same as someone coming to me today and saying they saw a direwolf. Unbeknownst to me until recently, Direwolves actually really existed, albeit not as ferocious as depicted in ASOIAF.

Nevertheless, i started getting a little disappointed that Maester Luwin didnt take serious heed to Jorgen Reeds green dreams about Winterfell being flooded by (salt sea) the Iron Men. Maesters, or at least those who study magic should have been hip to this already. I also wonder if Howland Reed has this green dream power as well. If so, why didnt he see Ned's demise?

Back to my subject line though, who do you all think are the best and worst maesters? I dont particularly like Measter Luwin as much anymore.

 

[The Imp]

Aemon is my favorite, although I can't say for sure he was the best. I suppose I can't think of anyone "better", so let's call himthat. The worst? Qyburn, if we can include him in the catagory.

 

[No One]

Aemon is my favorite, although I can't say for sure he was the best. I suppose I can't think of anyone "better", so let's call himthat. The worst? Qyburn, if we can include him in the catagory.

What he said.

I was struggling to remember Qyburn's name for a while there, although one wonders how exactly he's managed to re-animate Gregor. Quite an impressive feat of Frankensteinien genius if there was no magic involved.

I need a refresher course of some aspects of AFFC, so a question until then: do we know who the head honcho is over at the Citadel? Is there a single Head Maester or a ruling body? It's not particularly relevant right now but this talk of Maesters has me curious.

 

[The Imp]

What he said.

I was struggling to remember Qyburn's name for a while there, although one wonders how exactly he's managed to re-animate Gregor. Quite an impressive feat of Frankensteinien genius if there was no magic involved.

I need a refresher course of some aspects of AFFC, so a question until then: do we know who the head honcho is over at the Citadel? Is there a single Head Maester or a ruling body? It's not particularly relevant right now but this talk of Maesters has me curious.

I don't remember one single person being named as the "head" of the Citadel, , or even a title higher than Arch Maester or Grand Maester that would indicate that one person was in charge. Having said that, I can't imagine that there isn't one person that runs the show. Westeros loves it's class structures and pecking orders, and it also just makes sense in terms of the idea that the proverbial buck has to stop somewhere. I suspect we'll find out a lot more about this topic in the future.

 

[Boaz]

I'm gonna need some pliers and a set of 30-weight ball bearings...

I need a refresher course of some aspects of AFFC, so a question until then: do we know who the head honcho is over at the Citadel? Is there a single Head Maester or a ruling body? It's not particularly relevant right now but this talk of Maesters has me curious.

Awww, come on guys, it's so simple maybe you need a refresher course. [Boaz leans arm on hot keyboard, then jumps away] Heyya! It's all ball bearings nowadays. Now you prepare that Fetzer valve with some 3-in-1 oil and some gauze pads, and I'm gonna need 'bout ten quarts of anti-freeze, preferably Prestone. No, no make that Quaker State.

And wash these Microsoft Windows, They've got filth and muck on them...

Seriously, what is the purpose of the Citadel and the scholarly order of the Maesters? It's to provide wise cousel, to provide skilled healing, and to provide education for the next generation. I think Maester Luwin does a tremendous job of all three.

Now xlsx, since you say you're on a reread, I'm gonna throw out some infor on the Maesters from AFFC. [AFFC Spoiler Alert.]

In Sam's final chapter, Alleras and Marwyn tell Sam that the secret purpose/chief objective of the master Maesters is the destruction of Dragons and magic. Luwin does not appear to know this... he's a kind hearted man who was interested in magic, but ultimately was taught that it no longer exists (if it ever truly did). He and all the other Maesters have been conditioned and convinced that magic and the supernatural are all fairytales of a superstitious age.

So of course Luwin cannot help Bran. He cannot help but explain away Bran's, Rickon's, and Jojen's dreams. He cannot help but come up with alternate explainations to Osha's forebodings.

Luwin is a good man, but he's completely unprepared to deal with the supernatural. But then again, very few in ASOIAF are prepared.

Luwin was Bran's tutor, but did he fail Bran anymore than Eddard or Catelyn? Eddard hired Luwin. Eddard gave Bran permission to climb. Eddard allowed Jaime under his roof. Eddard and Catelyn both went south while Bran was in a coma and it fell to Luwin, Robb, Osha, and Hodor to raise him. Robb also went south never to return. Now, it's up to Meera, Jojen, and Hodor to raise Bran. I'd blame Eddard and Catelyn for Bran's predicament before I'd ever blame Luwin.

And if you've ever read my posts on Catelyn and Eddard (from years ago) then you know how much I think they failed all of their children... not just Bran.

Edit: Now to get to xlsx's original point... I like Aemon. How can I not like him?

Qyburn is a nasty piece of work, but he's intruiging. Trust GRRM to throw Dr. Frankenstein into the middle of the Albigensian Crusade.

 

[devilsgrin]

don't forget about Cercei's pet Maester... Grand Maester Pycelle...

the best of the maesters we are presented with Aemon... for his cunning positionin of Jon as the Lord Commander's "servant" (Jon's exact position eludes me... Steward perhaps?)

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

I agree, Maester Aemon would be my hands down favorite. More so, because of the intrigue of his dragon blood, his prophetic foreshadowing and vague historic recollection when it appears he's just rambling and talking nonsense. He made the reader hang onto every word because he's forgotten more than what most maesters in Westeros know.

Now on to Maester Qyburn. On the surface, it's easy to despise anyone who is in Cersie's service. He was banished from the Citadel for experimenting on the living which is a big no no to the uppity Arch and Grand Maesters. It appears that the Citadel will be against Danny and her Dragons due to them working to rid the world of Dragons, so that will put me more on Qyburn's side when the ish hits the fan. If his work on The Mountain proves successful and effectively champions Cersie, he may be the most sought after maester in Westeros. Imagine, Cersie being released with The Mountain and Qyburn with the chance to nurse his Frankensteinien genius (thanks No One) after winning the Trial by Champions, sort of like how Tyrion and Bronn were let go to fend for them selves. The storyline could get pretty interesting...

Grand Maester Pycell was old, narcoleptic, and had some weird coughing fits and Maester Cressent was physically inept, but both gave their respective employers wise council.

@ devilsgrin, the name servant, steward, squire, whipping boy all fits that position

@ Boaz, you are hilarious! I think Maester Luwin is a good man as well, but nice guys finish last. BTW, if he would have listened to Bran and Jorgen he wouldnt be "sleeping with the fishes" like Luca Debrazi.

Seriously, what is the purpose of the Citadel and the scholarly order of the Maesters? It's to provide wise cousel, to provide skilled healing, and to provide education for the next generation.

You are 100% correct with the purpose of the Citadel and maesters, but looking back do you think Maester Luwin gave Bran wise council, by dismissing the potential threats? This cost him his life and the subsequent sacking of Winterfell! He provided no education on the things that Bran desperately needed to learn. He had to learn this from a green boy (pun intended) The maesters chains consist of different metals that reflect the different areas of training, so at the very least, Maester Luwin should have had one of the links removed from his chain

In regards to your comments about Ned and Cat failing their children, i slightly disagree. Only because this is a different time frame and the youth have a higher value and are more capable than the world we live in. Think about it, during Robert's Rebellion, Ned and Robert had to be what 18 or 19 years old. How many just out of High School kids do you know has the discipline, wisdom, and leadership qualities to command that respect. Loras Tyrell, Jaime Lannister comes to mind as young kids in dangerous positions. My point is, i dont think Ned or Catelyn were that wrong in leaving Rob, Bran, and Rikkon by theirselves. Rob proved to be a capable fighter and may have won more victories in the field than his father. (not sure how many on the field victories Ned won, even though he won the most important in the Tower of Joy)

 

[No One]

Imp - agreed.

Boaz - you're a strange, strange fellow. I appreciate that

I'd say that another point on Luwin, from a storytelling pov, is that he was a medium used to help perpetuate a sense of reality for the reader, even if everything he's denied has since been shown to be misguided.

As for my thinking on the head Maesters over at the Citadel, well I was wondering if their 'field agents' (i.e: those sent to prominent families) are something of a front. As Boaz says, the Maesters are officially councillors, healers, educators, but as long as we don't know who's in charge and what their endgame is then the Citadel could, in truth, represent something very different (we all know how GRRM likes to play with fantasy tropes and this aspect of 'reason and logic prevailing over mysticism and monsters' is intriguing to say the least). Then again, maybe they are just as much in the dark as almost everyone else and their denial of all things supernatural, as LordSnow pointed out, is endemic to the insularity of Westeros.

As for the Mountain-That's-Not-Quite-Dead, I'm hoping for a classic 'golem terrorizing the city' kind of scenario, with Gregor breaking Cersei out of prison and carrying her like a child through the chaos of King's Landing; uprisings of the commonfolk, pitch-forks and fire-brands, etc. The whole nine yards. That'd be fun.

 

[TK-421]

I suspect that the future books may show us that Marwin is the most powerful of the maesters we have seen in the series.

I like Luwin and was sadened when he was killed.

 

[southron sword]

Qyburn is the coolest. And he has to be pretty good (In terms of skill) to save Jaime. Just think of all the crap that must have gotten into that wound. And his Gregor, I'm looking forward to that.

I liked the guy at the end of Feast. Is that Marwin? The guy with the glass candle? I want to see (read) him fight someone.

P.S. I like the bad guys. I actually liked Tywin.

 

[TK-421]

Yes, that was Marwin. He is also the one who taught Mirri-Maz-Dur her magic.

 

[Young stormlord]

I sort of like Marwin, although Aemon is my first choice. I like Marwin's description in here:

He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors’ temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

When Marwyn had returned to Oldtown, after spending eight years in the east mapping distant lands, searching for lost books, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders, Vinegar Vaellyn had dubbed him “Marwyn the Mage.” The name was soon all over Oldtown, to Vaellyn’s vast annoyance. “Leave spells and prayers to priests and septons and bend your wits to learning truths a man can trust in,” Archmaester Ryam had once counseled Pate, but Ryam’s ring and rod and mask were yellow gold, and his maester’s chain had no link of Valyrian steel.
Armen looked down his nose at Lazy Leo. He had the perfect nose for it, long and thin and pointed. “Archmaester Marwyn believes in many curious things,” he said, “but he has no more proof of dragons than Mollander. Just more sailors’ stories.”
“You’re wrong,” said Leo. “There is a glass candle burning in the Mage’s chambers.”

I also like the thinking about glass candles. They show that magic has returned with dragons.

A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.
Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.
“What are these glass candles?” asked Roone.
Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.”
“Yes.” Pate had heard the same stories. “But what’s the use of a candle that casts no light?”
“It is a lesson,” Armen said, “the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester’s chains. The glass candle is meant to represent truth and learning, rare and beautiful and fragile things. It is made in the shape of a candle to remind us that a maester must cast light wherever he serves, and it is sharp to remind us that knowledge can be dangerous. Wise men may grow arrogant in their wisdom, but a maester must always remain humble. The glass candle reminds us of that as well. Even after he has said his vow and donned his chain and gone forth to serve, a maester will think back on the darkness of his vigil and remember how nothing that he did could make the candle burn . . . for even with knowledge, some things are not possible.”

Also from ACOK, rich guy that fed Danny and her Khalassar:

"People say that glass candle is burning in the house of Urathon the Nightwalker."

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Those who posess the candles will definately have a huge role in the upcoming books.

Also, I hope we see in the upcoming books someone trying to wake the dragons and have a catastrophe similar to the "Tragedy at Summerhall".

Before Maester Aemon died, he made mention of meeting Egg and his tall knight (Dunk) at the Citadel. Was it disclosed as to the reason of this meeting?

 

[TK-421]

Uhhh, Young Stormlord, where are these quotes from? I don't remember them from AFFC.

 

[Young stormlord]

Uhhh, Young Stormlord, where are these quotes from? I don't remember them from AFFC.

Prologue... Thinkings of Pate, little "pigboy" whose face gets taken by "Jaquen H'gar" (who probably got his face taken by faceless man the same way).

 

[TK-421]

Ahhh, I see. Well, very revealing aren't they. I knew it was from a Pate POV but could not remember these somewhat detailed descriptions of Marwyn and the glass candle from them.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Ahhh, I see. Well, very revealing aren't they. I knew it was from a Pate POV but could not remember these somewhat detailed descriptions of Marwyn and the glass candle from them.

I'm somewhat disappointed in you TK for not knowing this. Are we starting to see a chink in your magnificent golden armour? No, it can't be, it had to be a small brainfart on your part, i forgive you.


I'm just as suprised that someone didnt point out to me that it was Lord Gyles who had the "weird coughing fits" and not Grand Maester Pycell. But anywho, we're not all perfect. Now if Geor.. i mean The Imp would have made this mistake then we all would need to pray to "The Stranger"

 

[The Imp]

I'm somewhat disappointed in you TK for not knowing this. Are we starting to see a chink in your magnificent golden armour? No, it can't be, it had to be a small brainfart on your part, i forgive you.


I'm just as suprised that someone didnt point out to me that it was Lord Gyles who had the "weird coughing fits" and not Grand Maester Pycell. But anywho, we're not all perfect. Now if Geor.. i mean The Imp would have made this mistake then we all would need to pray to "The Stranger"

Mayhaps you should STILL pray to The Stranger

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Mayhaps you should STILL pray to The Stranger

I usually keep my prayers limited to "The Warrior" and "The Crone", but "to each his own"