I have just finished an outline for a book, and I'd like some comments

[Doublehex]

Just like it says. I would like some thoughts on the general outline of the plot. I want to know what you guys think of it. Any thoughts, good or bad, are very much appreciated.

Just something to note:

The inspiration was the Legacy of Kain series of video games. They were a great influence in the tone of the book, as well as the depiction of vamprisim, but I have also tried to make it my own. If any of you are familiar with it, and think it is too close to that, please say so with all due speed.

1,000,000 Years [The Shaping of the World]: The Gods looked at the world. They were there before the very first life breathed. The Gods embodied all aspects of life, each God’s public name being what aspect it belonged to. Time, Life, Love, Death, Dream, Trickery, etc. Each God also had a secret name.

However, the Gods were not the first beings to walk the Galactic Steps. The Old Gods were there as well, beings of infinite wisdom, knowledge, power, and wrath. The Gods and The Old Gods battled, and it was the Gods that would claim victor. Most of the Old Gods were killed, their corpses to float in the Astral Realm. Others were enslaved by the Gods.

Only one Old God still lived without being enslaved. This Old God killed Trickery, and took His form and mannerism, and masqueraded amongst the Gods, waiting, and ever planning for vengeance.

900,000 Years [The First Great Age] The Golden Age of Falurth. The rise of the countless great kingdoms that would be spoken of with shining in the eyes, grandeur and wonder. Tyrants rose and were struck down by the sword, and the legendary heroes that forged the adventurous path first pioneered the road.

Most tell of all was the tale of the barbarian Valgrad, who after being the sole survivor of a raid, would go on to be raider, thief, warrior and grand adventurer. He would rise to be King of a Great Kingdom, and would in his final year strike down a mad sorcerer who dared to engulf the world in winter.

800,000 Years [The Age of Ice]Around this time the Gods selected several beings to be the Guardians of each aspect of magic. They would have total control of each aspect, and so no mortal would ever cause another Age of Ice. The only ones above the Guardians were the Gods themselves, but they all had a gentleman’s agreement not to use the Guardians to rule the world. Of course, not all liked these terms…

750,000 Years [The Rise of Khan]: Gone was the protection of the Kingdoms. Monsters controlled the lands. None were safe from the beats created from evil magic. The Age of Ice made the races ignorant. Much of the technological and intellectual advances made in the First Age was lost as the blizzards beat down on the world.

Then the Monster Hunters rose up. These great warriors took sword and spear to the monsters that kept the mortal races in their caves. Slowly, with the Monster Hunters leading the way, the mortal races grew.

The Monster Hunters became rulers in their own right, creating dynasties as they passed down the knowledge of their craft from generation to generation. The greatest of these clans were the Khan.

However, no man had ever killed a dragon, and they were the last symbol of resistance the beasts had. As long as no dragon was ever killed, then the beasts had hope of ultimate victory over the mortal races.

These aspirations were doomed to be crushed. The Khans, 600 years after the Age of Ice, had been reduced to a small number. Aldestrev was the father of his sons, his eldest was Vladislav, and the youngest were Ruriev and Tugrid. The Khans decided to strike at a dragon that was bringing havoc upon their lands. The Khans were amongst the first of the Monster Hunters, and so they reasoned they would be the first to bring down a dragon.

And in a display of great tactical and militarily prowess, they succeeded, but with grim results. The only survivor was Vladislav. The rest of his blood was murdered by the monster.

With its last breath, the dragon cursed Vladislav. Vladislav will be cursed as a “blood drinking demon, a monster himself, a predator that walks and breathes like its prey”.

In a month, Vladislav will wake up as the first vampire. In his mindless blood lust, he will feed upon his wife, unknowingly turning her into a vampire as well. Their unborn son, will also be born as a vampire.

He encounters a mystic, who tells him that the Guardians of the World have become corrupted by the magic that has seeped into the world from the Chaotic Realm Above. New Guardians must be chosen, but first, the current Guardians must be purged. Perhaps then Khan will find peace.

Little does he know that this is the Old God in disguise. The Guardians, although somewhat corrupted, are what prevents him from using the full extent of his powers. With them removed, he will have full range of his powers to wreak vengeance on the Gods.

One by one, Khan kills the Guardians. One of the first guards he kills, Hamyadi, agrees to allow the Guardian of Life to permanently trap his soul in a Golem. The Golem hunts down Khan.

Khan is initially defeated, but in a vision bestowed on him by the Old God, he sees a weapon sticking out of the corpse of the dragon. Going there he finds his sword, twisted and mutated by the blood of the dragon. The bronze blade has become a dark metal. Using it, he finally defeats the Golem, although the Golem escapes before Khan can finish it off.

The last Guardian to be “killed” is that of Death. However, Death’s corpse dissolves way into the form of the mystic, who in turn reveals the form of Trickery. Trickery reveals that it was magic that was keeping the Gods from ruling the world. Trickery was bored being a nameless guardian of the world. He wanted to have some say in what was going on. He wanted to rule it.

So, he had Khan kill off the Guardians. Now that they are all dead, he can rule the world!

That is until Khan rips his body to shreds and impales his still talking head onto a pike and declares that he will rule the world. He is no one’s servant. The head laughs hysterically as Khan leaves Death’s Halls.

As soon as Khan leaves, the head dissolves into dust. In the “mind” (that being a very general term here) of the Old God, things could not have gone better. Magic has been allowed back into the world, the Gods are scrambling together trying to put together a solution, and the Old God has claimed his vengeance. The Gods will no longer have absolute control over the magical arts and the world – now the mortals have that very same power.

However, the Old God had no intention of allowing anyone else to discover that. Thus, he takes upon the form of a crusader and begins the great war against the Vampires.

Thanks everyone who took the time to read all of this.

 

[clippedwolf]

You are writing a grand epic. There are gaps in your logic or important details missing from your outline. I'm will try to be constructive here, now, because I get frustrated trying to understand the story. The style it seems you are trying to write in sounds grandiose and unnecessary when written badly, but you may develop a talent for it. If that is your intention then you shouldn't be dissuaded anywhere, least of all in an internet forum.
If I understand this right, a hero goes out trying to bring hope to his people, is cursed by the mortal creature that killed his brother and father, and develops a nihilistic vendetta against gods and their guardians. Cursed by a mortal dragon, kills gods and/or god-like beings.

1,000,000 Years [The Shaping of the World],900,000 Years [The First Great Age] The Golden Age of Falurth, ETC...

What are you counting down to?
Recorded human history has been within the last 5000 years. The time table you gave is enough time for a species to evolve, but in a world with gods and magic anything is possible.

However, the Gods were not the first beings to walk the Galactic Steps. The Old Gods were there as well, beings of infinite wisdom, knowledge, power, and wrath. The Gods and The Old Gods battled, and it was the Gods that would claim victor. Most of the Old Gods were killed, their corpses to float in the Astral Realm. Others were enslaved by the Gods.

Obviously, the Old Gods were not, after all, beings of infinite power or they would have won. If they had infinite wisdom or knowledge they would not have lost. How did the new gods come to be in the first place? If you say the Old Gods made them then why would they knowingly bring about their own destruction and enslavement, only to fight to prevent it?
Are you using wrath when you mean furry?

Most tell of all was the tale of the barbarian Valgrad, who after being the sole survivor of a raid, would go on to be raider, thief, warrior and grand adventurer. He would rise to be King of a Great Kingdom, and would in his final year strike down a mad sorcerer who dared to engulf the world in winter.

Connan, how have you been?

Gone was the protection of the Kingdoms. Monsters controlled the lands. None were safe from the beats created from evil magic. The Age of Ice made the races ignorant. Much of the technological and intellectual advances made in the First Age was lost as the blizzards beat down on the world.

And what brought about this cataclysmic weather change?

The Gods looked at the world. They were there before the very first life breathed.

Then how did life come about? Why do these gods want to control the world in the first place? Your outline doesn't touch upon that your hero is in a position to discover the reason and purpose of his own existence.
The gods seem indifferent, as though the god of life only cares that there is life, the god of dreams only cares that there are dreams.
How can magic keep the gods from ruling the world both before and after the events of the story? If you are confused now then we have that much in common.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

My problem with the whole god and sorcery things is summed up in your outline as in:-

and would in his final year strike down a mad sorcerer who dared to engulf the world in winter.

Well come on are these gods or mice. Some jumped up sorcerer is able to tell these 'gods' it's going to be winter. At the very least you'd think Gradgadon the god of weather would have a say never mind all the other interested parties. Why would they roll over and let this spell maker rule the roust.

So for me you have to have better dividing lines between what the gods do and what they allow the rest of the characters to do. Covering the world with ice a "powerful god" power and not in a ephemeral sorcerers remit.

 

[Sapheron]

To summarise this post quickly: I enjoy the thought of your idea and fondly remember hours in front of my PC. However, I have serious doubts as to how this would come off, the reasons for which I detail below, in order of increasing concern.

I don't like the timeline. It's too long. A milllion years ago we were small and fluffy. It's only taken us a few thousand years to go from braining each other with rocks to nuking each other. To be perfectly honest, there's absolutely no reason why there needs to be such a long timeline either. From what I see, the latest event is 750,000 years ago anyway... what's with that?

That leads to the next problem. I don't understand whether this is the introduction to the story, which continues off it, or whether you're planning to write what you've posted up. Which is it?

Anywho. I love Legacy of Kain. I've never met any story that was so incredibly complex or that so satisfactorily showed the effects of meddling with time with so few plot holes (though Vorador is actually alive after he died at one point, admittedly). Being something of an expert on LoK, if I say so myself, I can't help but note the similarities between your story and that. My first thought having read it was that you thought LoK was awesome and so had decided to put it into novel form, renaming characters in some effort to avoid copyright. Admittedly, there are differences, yes. Admittedly, you could probably get away with it. I have nothing against the style of LoK (I'd love a book that did it well) but at the same time I wouldn't appreciate a re-write of it. Your idea has me a little nervous.

In addition, as has been said, this style isn't an easy one to pull off. LoK has a unique feel because very rarely has that style been done successfully. Often it comes off looking rather conceited and overblown. I noticed the holes put forward by the others as well. If you really do want to do something like LoK you might want to plan more carefully and think things through more thoroughly.

 

[zachariah]

Originally posted by Clippedwolf:
Are you using wrath when you mean furry?

I'm adding this to my collection of typos that improve the author's original intention.

 

[Doublehex]

Oh wow, I never expected so many comments in such a short time span. Thanks alot guys!

Now allow me to answer some questions in regards of the timeline. The outline is twofold - it is an outline for my novel that I will be writing, but it is also a history of the world. I have the intention of setting all of my fantasy novels in this world. So that is why this book is set so early in the beginning - because it is at the beginning. The era of the book is an era that will eventually be forgotten. No one will remember it.

But the legend of Khan will remain. He is, after all, the very first vampire in Falurth.

Now clippedwolf, you said my style "sounds grandiose and unnecessary when written badly". Well, good news - this is not my writing style! My writing style when I write books and when I write little outlines like these are quite different. I suppose I got carried away with it all. My true writing style is much simpler than this.

You also raised up a good point in terms of how far I am spreading the timeline. It was actually much worse, where it was hundreds of thousands of years apart from each events, instead of dozens. I will probably shorten it even more to make it more plausible.

In regards to how could the the Old Gods be defeated if they were beings of infinite wisdom and the like... you are very much right. I didn't even think of that. I was just writing down words, I suppose.

It also made me think of something else - why did the Gods feel the need to take control of Falurth away from the Old Gods, beyond giving motivation for the Big Bad?

Connan, how have you been?

To respects of the famed barbarian, it was Conan.

In truth, I did not even think of Conan when I wrote that. To my displeasure, I have read only The Pheonix on the Sword. My desire to have some Sword and Sorcery tales in my world comes from Fire and Ice, that awesome movie by Ralph Bekshi and Frank Frazetta.

I was watching it the other day, and all I could saw was "Wow! This is great stuf! I want to write some stuff like this!"

So that was basically where Valgrad came from. I imagine he would be more like Beowulf than Conan, what with me being a mini-fan of Norse mythology.

Well come on are these gods or mice. Some jumped up sorcerer is able to tell these 'gods' it's going to be winter. At the very least you'd think Gradgadon the god of weather would have a say never mind all the other interested parties. Why would they roll over and let this spell maker rule the roust.

Well I want to ask you something. Who says this was some "jumped up sorcerer"? This could of have been (and was) a master dabbler in the chaotic arts, who had devoted more than a few parts of his most inner soul, in discovering the deepest, darkest, powers of the arcane arts.

This wasn't some newbie wizard. This was a master who cursed the world.

Also, I have to ask, why can't magic be this powerful? After all, this is magic. Power over the elements and nearly every entity of life! Why can't mages be pseudo-gods walking amongst men, who have to constantly balance their hubris with their humanity and conscience? If mages can do anything... should they?

That's just my way of seeing it, of course.

I don't like the timeline. It's too long. A million years ago we were small and fluffy. It's only taken us a few thousand years to go from braining each other with rocks to nuking each other. To be perfectly honest, there's absolutely no reason why there needs to be such a long timeline either. From what I see, the latest event is 750,000 years ago anyway... what's with that?

I'm pretty sure I addressed this earlier, but I'll comment here anyways, just to make sure. It probably is too long. The events are with all probability far too spread apart. It's why I had that Ice Age last for 200 years instead of the original 1,000!

It's also why I'll be having the years shortened even more so. I want the progression of the world to be realistic. I think have a "5,000 old Empire" is just asininely stupid. Not even cities can last that long, let alone a single globe spanning Empire!

And the reason the "latest" event is set 750,000 years ago is because this novel begins at the relative beginning. I wanted my first book to be at the beginning... or close enough to it.

Now, moving on to the dreaded Legacy of Kain comparisons... I have only finished Blood Omen. I have all of the games, and I am now moving onto Soul Reaver. So, I would think this would have more similarities with Blood Omen than the Legacy of Kain games as a whole.

Since Blood Omen was the one that gave me the initial idea for the story, in this rough draft of the plot, there is going to be similarities. That was my big motivator for posting here - so people can point it out to me, and I can clean up the mess with all due speed.

And again, this is a draft of the plot. It is not going to be the final outline of the first novel. I imagine that once I start work on the novel, the final way that events turn will be quite different.


Well, that is all for now. I appreciate your concerns, and I assure you, I will be considering them a great deal as I wrestle my thoughts in my head.

 

[mygoditsraining]

My thoughts:

Don't worry about timespans, unless they are somehow crucial to your plot. Having a rought timeline of events is great for working out which old God is bearing a grudge against whatever hero you've got going but otherwise you can keep the brush strokes pretty broad.

To give an example, if you look at Steven Erikson's books, the timelines make zero sense. Stuff happens and it's all very Epic but once you sit down and try to make sense of it all, you realise he's just used it all for atmosphere and isn't really aiming at creating a cohesive historical document.

There are people out there who LOVE world-building, and will go to great lengths tinkering with dates and family trees and events and maps and all the rest of it, and that is absolutely fine if that's what you want to do.

However, if you want to tell a story, then there's only so much tinkering you can do before it starts to get in the way of the actual act of telling a story.

As an outline for a book, I think you're missing the emphasis on details that will explain to critiquerer-ers what the book will actually be about. Who's the protagonist? Is it Khan? Who are the primary antagonists? What events span the actual substance of the book? Most of it is already up there in your outline, but it's not presented in a way that makes me think "right, this is why I give a hoot, now here's why his quest is important, now here are the major events and the big emotive finish." Fair enough that he becomes legendary in later eras - but you need to communicate what it is that makes him legendary and why those events make a great story.

I think Jon Gardner put it a little better:

“In the best fiction, plot is not a series of surprises but an increasingly moving series of recognitions, or moments of understanding.”

Your outline needs to give that impression of what the big moments are that will make up the cascade, and give you the plot entire.

More specific comments in a sec.

 

[mygoditsraining]

The Gods looked at the world. They were there before the very first life breathed. The Gods embodied all aspects of life, each God’s public name being what aspect it belonged to. Time, Life, Love, Death, Dream, Trickery, etc. Each God also had a secret name.

OK. First up, name and number the Gods, or at least name all the ones that will play an important role in the story. Be prepared to have a good long think about their magical aspects and how those will be reflected in the story, because - assuming that magic leaking into the world will be used in an aspect-based fashion - that will form the major part of every single conflict you have involving aspected characters.

Only one Old God still lived without being enslaved. This Old God killed Trickery, and took His form and mannerism, and masqueraded amongst the Gods, waiting, and ever planning for vengeance.

Cool, vengeance against the Gods from a usurped power. Very Norse, indeed, but nevertheless tons of potential.

Most tell of all was the tale of the barbarian Valgrad, who after being the sole survivor of a raid, would go on to be raider, thief, warrior and grand adventurer. He would rise to be King of a Great Kingdom, and would in his final year strike down a mad sorcerer who dared to engulf the world in winter....800,000 Years [The Age of Ice]

So basically Valgrad kills the sorceror, but fails to prevent the ice age. Not sure why this is all here, it sounds like a very short summary of another book. It could really be summed up by saying "The Gods decide to withdraw magic from the world following the Age of Ice, brought about by the unleashed power of a sorceror touched by madness".

Anyway, so we get Guardians, who are essentially living aspects of Gods, but the Gods agree not to use them to rule over the world.

These aspirations were doomed to be crushed. The Khans, 600 years after the Age of Ice, had been reduced to a small number. Aldestrev was the father of his sons, his eldest was Vladislav, and the youngest were Ruriev and Tugrid. The Khans decided to strike at a dragon that was bringing havoc upon their lands. The Khans were amongst the first of the Monster Hunters, and so they reasoned they would be the first to bring down a dragon.

OK, bold adventurers, mighty kingdoms and races, pride before a fall - sounds like another book, really, but could be good backstory.

With its last breath, the dragon cursed Vladislav. Vladislav will be cursed as a “blood drinking demon, a monster himself, a predator that walks and breathes like its prey”.

In a month, Vladislav will wake up as the first vampire. In his mindless blood lust, he will feed upon his wife, unknowingly turning her into a vampire as well. Their unborn son, will also be born as a vampire.

Right, this is all well and good, but the question is...how is this such a curse? The dragon gives him power enough to face the living avatars of Gods in battle, so are the dragons servants of the Old God? Otherwise, why would someone elevate their enemy to almost Godlike status without awareness of the long game? Where does the bronze dragon with the sword in come from?

Eventually, at the end, it's just a rambling set of circumstances. There's a confrontation with Death, who turns out to be the Old God, so was that meant to be the Old God's aspect (which is odd because the Old God is hiding in the form of Trickery - so if he killed Death's Guardian why did he need the vampire to kill the others?). There's then a fight, after which Kain says BWAHAHAHA I WILL ROOLZ TEH WURLD but there's no explanation as to why the Gods can't now just come down en masse and slap him upside the head (seeing as magic haws been unleashed anyway).

Ultimately, aside from the odd walk-through plothole, what it needs is a coherent human element. You need to engage the reader with your protagonist, even if he is an evil vampire, because otherwise they'll give up fifty pages in because they can't be bothered caring about what happens to him.

 

[Doublehex]

OK. First up, name and number the Gods, or at least name all the ones that will play an important role in the story. Be prepared to have a good long think about their magical aspects and how those will be reflected in the story, because - assuming that magic leaking into the world will be used in an aspect-based fashion - that will form the major part of every single conflict you have involving aspected characters.

Well, I never had the intention - or at least, in its current incarnation - for the Gods to have a major impact on the story. The way I wrote the outline, I wanted to state everything that had happened before my story takes place. Even if it isn't important to this story, I still want to know. I am very fickle like that. I want to know all of the chain of events that lead to something.

Cool, vengeance against the Gods from a usurped power. Very Norse, indeed, but nevertheless tons of potential.

Actually, I was thinking more of Greek mythology here, like how the Greek gods usurped the Titans.

So basically Valgrad kills the sorceror, but fails to prevent the ice age. Not sure why this is all here, it sounds like a very short summary of another book. It could really be summed up by saying "The Gods decide to withdraw magic from the world following the Age of Ice, brought about by the unleashed power of a sorcerer touched by madness".

I wrote that little blurb about Valgrad because I will be writing about him... eventually.

Probably as a series of short stories.

Anyway, so we get Guardians, who are essentially living aspects of Gods, but the Gods agree not to use them to rule over the world.

OK, bold adventurers, mighty kingdoms and races, pride before a fall - sounds like another book, really, but could be good backstory.

Actually, this is essentially the first Act of the book - them going out to kill the dragon.

Right, this is all well and good, but the question is...how is this such a curse? The dragon gives him power enough to face the living avatars of Gods in battle, so are the dragons servants of the Old God? Otherwise, why would someone elevate their enemy to almost Godlike status without awareness of the long game? Where does the bronze dragon with the sword in come from?

It's a curse because he becomes a monster. Does he gain extremely heightened strength? Sure. But he becomes a blood sucking monster. He becomes a demon. He becomes a predator of the very people he had once protected.

I never considered the dragons to be servants of the Old Gods... but that is a great idea! Mind if I steal it and claim it as my own.

And why would a being, on its last few moments of existence, elevate its murderer to Godlike powers? Probably because it wasn't thinking rationally. Being on Death's front door will probably remove all sense of reasoning and logic from the smartest of us.

Eventually, at the end, it's just a rambling set of circumstances. There's a confrontation with Death, who turns out to be the Old God, so was that meant to be the Old God's aspect (which is odd because the Old God is hiding in the form of Trickery - so if he killed Death's Guardian why did he need the vampire to kill the others?). There's then a fight, after which Kain says BWAHAHAHA I WILL ROOLZ TEH WURLD but there's no explanation as to why the Gods can't now just come down en masse and slap him upside the head (seeing as magic haws been unleashed anyway).

Ultimately, aside from the odd walk-through plothole, what it needs is a coherent human element. You need to engage the reader with your protagonist, even if he is an evil vampire, because otherwise they'll give up fifty pages in because they can't be bothered caring about what happens to him.

You raised a valid point - well, a few actually. Why would the Old God trick Khan into killing the other Guardians if he could have just done it?

Because it would of have blown his cover! He can kill and masquerade one Guardian. But he can't be 10 of them at once. The Gods would find out, they would investigate, and then they would find the Old God and punish him severely.

So, he had something else - a mortal, albeit a very much monsterized one.. As part of their agreement, the Gods agreed not to deal with mortals. They were now like the real God of our world - divine entities that guided mortals, but did not direct them to the most desirable outcome.

You were right on with the human element Khan, despite his mortal killing ways, he needs to be human. He has to be something the readers are willing to root for.

He has to be someone the readers can care about.

And maybe it is my style with outlines, but I don't usually go into character development with them. I just outline the plot.

Thanks for the comments, mygoditsraining. I appreciate them!

Oh, and one last thing...

Sephiropth sucks.

 

[TheEndIsNigh]

Well I want to ask you something. Who says this was some "jumped up sorcerer"? This could of have been (and was) a master dabbler in the chaotic arts, who had devoted more than a few parts of his most inner soul, in discovering the deepest, darkest, powers of the arcane arts.

This wasn't some newbie wizard. This was a master who cursed the world

Generally in the 'magical' worlds gods are accepted as that. They can specialise but if I'm the god of weather then I'm the power that people draw on to affect it.

I'm in control of every aspect of what, how, when or if there will be weathering today, tomorrow and for ever. That's why I'm a god and anybody else better understand that as a god of weather then if it's sunny tomorrow it's because either I can't be bothered to make it rain or because I want it to be sunny.

Powerful sorcerers can take a hike if they think the can use my power against what I want because that's what gods do. The are all powerful in their specialist area.

Now I can't say if the crops will grow that's not my business. That's my nephews job.

Powerful sorcerers can operate within the rules and create local variations, or even combine the effects of crop growing spells with changes to the weather spells to create a powerful local effect because that's what sorcerers do. Meddle in things.

Now if you haven't got any gods in your world then fair enough. Your sorceres can step up to the plate and do whatever they like except become gods - cause there ain't any.

IMO

 

[Doublehex]

Generally in the 'magical' worlds gods are accepted as that. They can specialise but if I'm the god of weather then I'm the power that people draw on to affect it.

I'm in control of every aspect of what, how, when or if there will be weathering today, tomorrow and for ever. That's why I'm a god and anybody else better understand that as a god of weather then if it's sunny tomorrow it's because either I can't be bothered to make it rain or because I want it to be sunny.

Powerful sorcerers can take a hike if they think the can use my power against what I want because that's what gods do. The are all powerful in their specialist area.

Now I can't say if the crops will grow that's not my business. That's my nephews job.

Powerful sorcerers can operate within the rules and create local variations, or even combine the effects of crop growing spells with changes to the weather spells to create a powerful local effect because that's what sorcerers do. Meddle in things.

Now if you haven't got any gods in your world then fair enough. Your sorceres can step up to the plate and do whatever they like except become gods - cause there ain't any.

IMO

There is just one problem with your POV.

You are assuming there is only one way to position the power level of mages and gods.

I don't agree with that. I know there needs to be limits, that there needs to be rules. Rules and limitations are what makes us human.

However, the limits I like in stories are that which don't say how powerful one can go, but rather how much power one can have until they stop being human and start to be something else.

The question I would raise in such a story is thus - is all that power worth it?

But that is neither here nor there.

 

[Dozmonic]

Generally in the 'magical' worlds gods are accepted as that. They can specialise but if I'm the god of weather then I'm the power that people draw on to affect it.

I'm in control of every aspect of what, how, when or if there will be weathering today, tomorrow and for ever. That's why I'm a god and anybody else better understand that as a god of weather then if it's sunny tomorrow it's because either I can't be bothered to make it rain or because I want it to be sunny.

Powerful sorcerers can take a hike if they think the can use my power against what I want because that's what gods do. The are all powerful in their specialist area.

Now I can't say if the crops will grow that's not my business. That's my nephews job.

Powerful sorcerers can operate within the rules and create local variations, or even combine the effects of crop growing spells with changes to the weather spells to create a powerful local effect because that's what sorcerers do. Meddle in things.

Now if you haven't got any gods in your world then fair enough. Your sorceres can step up to the plate and do whatever they like except become gods - cause there ain't any.

IMO

You assume that gods uniquely have overriding control of a certain aspect, this is not necessarily the case. A god can have many powers that extend into certain areas more than others and he can vie with other gods or, perhaps, mortals whose powers are becoming comparable to the god's own.

The distinction between god and sorceror is entirely contained within the world it is written and can be fully changed to be whatever the author needs as long as it is consistent.

 

[The Judge]

You are assuming there is only one way to position the power level of mages and gods.

I don't agree with that. I know there needs to be limits, that there needs to be rules. Rules and limitations are what makes us human.

However, the limits I like in stories are that which don't say how powerful one can go

I think the point TEiN is making is a semantic one. If you call a being a 'god' then certain expectations are raised, one of which is that there a superhuman being who has power. That power might not be absolute, but nonetheless, it elevates the being above all others who are not themselves gods. Immortality might not be a pre-requisite, but is pretty usual as well. I'd also say that a god's godness is inherent in some way - one doesn't study to become a god (though one might be elevated to godhead I suppose).

A 'mage' on the other hand carries connotations of wizardry and learning. Pretty powerful perhaps, depending on the story, but still mortal. And, yes, inferior in power in at least certain respects to a 'god'.

The difficulty is that you are using words which have a history to them. To assert that a mage is more powerful than a god is similar to saying that an orc is a more honest, loving, beautiful creature than an elf.

Of course, this is your story and you can subvert the whole power relationship if you so wish. But you will be working against your readers' expectations. If that's your intention, fine. But unless you explain yourself early on, you risk having readers like TEiN thinking 'What the hell is going on...?' and throwing your book against the wall.

J