Technical Question regarding R+L=J

City of Troy

Jul 15, 2009
Let's assume that R+L=J is true. Jon is still a *******, right? In the absence of Dany, would a ******* son of Rhaegar be the true heir to Westeros?

If not, then what about Robb's decree regarding his heir to the North? If Robb legitimized Jon, thinking he was making Jon Stark, could he have accidentally made Jon Targaryen?
No, he would have been made Jon Stark, Heir to the North. Besides which Rob Stark's decrees are null and void with the dissolution of his kingdom.

Bastards cannot inherit in Westeros, so Daenerys is the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne, whether Jon is her nephew or not. Therefore, her heir, whomever they may be, would be the rightful heir in her absence.
One can remake the rules very easily with an army, a couple of dragons and a willing (and starving) population.

A ******* will sit on the Iron Throne.
He and the hillfolk are the only ones.

Look at it logically, whoever conquers Westeros it isn't going to be the Northmen, so their rebellious one time king will have no sway whatsoever. Best case scenario, the North is able to re-establish itself as independent after the current or consecutive governments prove unstable, but even then it would more likely be Roose Bolton ruling the north, and a legitimate heir of Robb Stark that would trump his own claim would be the last proclamation he would wish to uphold.
He and the hillfolk are the only ones.
but even then it would more likely be Roose Bolton ruling the north, and a legitimate heir of Robb Stark that would trump his own claim would be the last proclamation he would wish to uphold.

I recently re-read the chapter where Bran hosts all the lords of the North at Winterfell (the chapter before the Reeds arrive), and I don't see those guys pitching in with Bolton. They definitely don't like his ******* son. We can also be certain that Riverrun will support Bolton/Lannister rule only as much as they are forced to at the point of a sword. While Bolton rules the North on paper, I don't think any Northerner will rally to his banner.

I guess my point is, it doesn't matter what proclamation Bolton chooses to uphold - it's what the Northerners believe that matters.
Stannis' attempts to get the Northerner on his side also complicate things. It seems he gets the Karstarks but that's only because they are p/o'd over Robb executing his justice.
Anyways, what is interesting is in Reek's preview POV, there are two men sitting with and advising Bolton's *******. I remember asking the question who they were but don't remember the answer (Wert: I think you knew). One of them was an Umber I think. Who's to say the bannermen are not playing all sides to make sure they fall on the right one. Or that certain elements are taking advantage of the war and lawlessness and seeking to advance their own interests.

So, it may become every man for himself in the north now that the Ironmen have also come to play in the sandbox. That we will see in Asha's POV in ADWD.
If you are a Manderly, a Reed, a Mormont, or an Umber (by the way, is the Greatjon dead or imprisoned?) would you rather be ruled by the Boltons, the Baratheons, the Greyjoys, or the Lannisters? Those appear to be their choices at the moment.

Of course, they could choose to fight against any non-Starks. But this seems problematic at the moment. One minor northern house standing alone against Stannis, Euron, or Tommen/Roose seems like suicide.

It appears that Mors Umber at least is willing to back the Boltons. For the Umbers this seems like a no brainer... With the Starks in charge, the Umbers are behind the Manderlys, the Karstarks, the Boltons, and possibly the Hornwoods, the Cerwyns, the Glovers, the Reeds, and the Mormonts as well. By supporting House Bolton, House Umber moves up the ladder.

As to the original post... I think one of Martin's themes is might makes right. Not right in a moral sense, but certainly in political terms. The Children of the Forest were beaten by the First Men. The First Men were beaten by the Andals. The Rhoynar successfully sliced themselves a piece of the Westerosi pie. The Ironmen of the Iron Islands certainly live by the idea of might makes right. Aegon the Conqueror subdued the Andals, the Ironmen, and the First Men. Robert was not the true heir of Aerys II, but he became king anyway. If you are the strongest, you make the rules. No more, no less.

If Dany finds out that R+L=illegitimateJ, she could legitimize Jon. Or she might decide to kill the whoreson anyway.
If Dany finds out that R+L=illegitimateJ, she could legitimize Jon. Or she might decide to kill the whoreson anyway.

Wouldn't that make Jon the King? Interesting that a royal decree can knock the person who signs it off the throne.
Warning!!! Possible Spoilers!!!

Warning!!! Ridiculous Theories!!!

No, I don't think Dany would give power over to Jon under normal circumstances.

Dany will rule as Queen. She'll want to be Aegon reborn in addition to AA reborn.

But if Mirri's prophecy is true and Dany is unable to concieve, then she'll leave no trueborn heir and the Targaryen's will be back in the same old mess.

Now if Dany legitimizes Jon and takes him as her co-ruler in name(remember Aegon I took both of his sisters as Queens and wives) and if Dany took another person as Queen (two royal consorts just like Aegon), then Jon could father a child upon that woman... Complicated, but it seems like the only way that the Targs can legitimately continue their line.

My personal choice for this other woman is Sansa. We know that Jon likes redheads.

But the Targaryens often took brides of Valyrian blood so don't count out Houses Dayne and Velaryon. Also Dany might need to strengthen ties to a major house, so throw Arianne and Margaery into this mix. Remember, Dany is not above finding gratification where she can.

There are only two other possible males of Targaryen blood. Tyrion and Aegon. If Tyrion has any Targaryen blood, it's *******'s blood. Plus he's hated by the entire kingdom, so he'd be a bad choice for co-ruler.

But Aegon (Rhaegar's son by Elia, the one who supposedly had his brains smeared all over the nursery) may still be alive. He's Dany's nephew, though he's actually six months to a year older than her. He may have been smuggled out of KL by a conspiracy involving at least Elia and Jon Connington... and probably Varys... and maybe Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar as well.


Dany's choices are two nephews (legitimate Aegon and illegitimate Jon) or an uncle (illegitimate Tyrion).

I doubt that Dany would really give up power. She'd name her husband as King to secure the rights of his son, but she'd retain power in her hands.

But then again if Aegon is alive, then wouldn't his claim as eldest surviving male heir of Aerys II through Rhaegar take precedence over Dany's claim as Aerys' only surviving child? If Dany chooses Jon, then she'll retain power.... but if she chooses Aegon, then she'll be forced by marriage, by tradition, and by Jon Connington (by the way, I think he's still alive) to let Aegon run the show.

I'm discounting Euron, Victarion, Quentyn, and Loras (is he really injured or is he secretly looking for Dany?) because I believe that Dany thinks she's barren. I believe that Dany's prime goal after gaining the Iron Throne will be the continuation of her dynasty... and the only way to do this is to put a Targaryen on the throne.

The neat little ending to ASOIAF has Dany marrying Aegon and Sansa. Aegon fathers a son upon Sansa, thus securing the Targaryen dynasty. Tyraen Targaryen serves as Hand of the Queen while Jon Targaryen defeats The Other. Yet somehow, I doubt it'll work out this way.

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