Why wouldn't Gandalf send the eagles with the Ring to Orodruin?

[Siberian]

I see this question arise from time to time: Why doesn't Gandalf think about sending the eagles - by themselves or with Frodo - to Orodruin instead of attempting such a perilous and most likely doomed journey?

Aside from the narrative standpoint - what would the book be about? - I think there're some fairly practical reasons.

First, eagles are allies, not servants, you have to obtain their permission...

Second, Sauron has a lot of beasts at his command, including flying monsters, even before the Nazgul air force (and there's Saruman to consider, too). Eagles, especially with the Ring can be spotted and might not be able to defend themselves. Besides, they can't fly non stop from Rivendell to Mount Doom, they have to rest and make themselves more vulnerable.

Finally, Mordor is Sauron's land, where his power is at the strongest. He might have overlooked small creatures like hobbits but he must have taken into account eagles, traditional - and powerful - enemies of the dark lords. The eagles didn't dare flying over Mordor until he was gone.

 

[HareBrain]

I think they would have stood a much better chance. There's no evidence Sauron has any flying monsters at his disposal apart from the Nazgul's mounts (riderless at the time of the Council of Elrond) and Saruman's crows. Eagles can fly a long, long way without even flapping their wings, by using thermals and air currents; they wouldn't have had to rest much.

My guess is that Gandalf didn't think of the idea because Tolkien didn't think of the idea. If Tolkien had done, someone would have raised it at the Council of Elrond. They talked of the possibility of giving the ring to Bombadil or chucking it in the sea. So why not even discuss the possibility of approaching the eagles, which would make far more sense?

 

[Siberian]

They still can be shot at the approach, and Sauron has other tricks we don't even know about.

 

[HareBrain]

They still can be shot at the approach, and Sauron has other tricks we don't even know about.

For the sake of debate, shot by what? These things can fly thousands of feet high, and there's no evidence that Sauron stationed a company of archers on Mount Doom. As for Sauron's tricks, Middle Earth is a low-magic world. None of the magicians we see use any kind of long-ranged attack (far as I remember). If Sauron had possessed one, there were other times when it would have made sense for him to use it. Therefore, I think the evidence supports the view that he didn't have anything to use against a high-speed flying target.

If I'd been Gandalf, I certainly would have thought it worth the risk compared to sending a hobbit on foot. Bear in mind that to Sauron, the idea of someone wishing to destroy his ring was completely alien, so even if he became aware of the eagles' approach, through the palantir or some other method, he wouldn't have twigged what their mission was until too late.

 

[Dozmonic]

The ring would've corrupted them and we'd have had Gwaihollum!

 

[Siberian]

For the sake of debate, shot by what? These things can fly thousands of feet high, and there's no evidence that Sauron stationed a company of archers on Mount Doom.

They had to land on the mountain somewhere. As for archers, they could be moved to intercept eagles once they were spotted over the mountains.

Also, the Ring can't be thrown from above, someone has to get inside to the very place it was forged.

As for Sauron's tricks, Middle Earth is a low-magic world. None of the magicians we see use any kind of long-ranged attack (far as I remember). If Sauron had possessed one, there were other times when it would have made sense for him to use it.

The rock thrown from Barad-dur killed Anarion. I don't think it was achieved purely technically, but probably assisted by by Sauron's will. Of course, eagles are harder to hit than even fast riders (and Anarion must have been on foot at that time). But they become more vulnerable the close they get to Orodruin... who know, he might have manipulated the fires to aide him, it was his mountain after all.

Therefore, I think the evidence supports the view that he didn't have anything to use against a high-speed flying target.

That's assuming that he didn't have any big birds of his own or couldn't hurl anything at him. But Gandalf wouldn't count on that even if he thought about it.

If I'd been Gandalf, I certainly would have thought it worth the risk compared to sending a hobbit on foot. Bear in mind that to Sauron, the idea of someone wishing to destroy his ring was completely alien, so even if he became aware of the eagles' approach, through the palantir or some other method, he wouldn't have twigged what their mission was until too late.

He certainly would have taken them for spies and tried to intercept them or drive them away. Then he would feel the Ring's presence and would have guessed their purpose.

Besides, it's not that the idea to destroy the Ring didn't occur to anyone. It did, at least to the elves. However, Sauron was absolutely sure that anyone who possessed the Ring would never want to destroy it instead of use it against him. He didn't take hobbits into account (he's not the only one). However, in the end he was right because even Frodo couldn't bring himself to do it. And if he had went from Rivendell safely to Orodruin he wouldn't have met Gollum and that would be the end for Middle-earth.

But it's a good question: did this idea occur to Tolkien at all? Considering how detail-oriented he was in his world-building.

 

[Boaz]

The ring would've corrupted them and we'd have had Gwaihollum!

Not a bad point. If Gollum, Frodo, or Sam claimed the Ring... big deal. If Aragorn or Galadriel claimed the Ring, then they've got a problem.

What if Gwaihir claimed the Ring? You think Barad-dur is inaccessible? Ha. That's nothing compared to the remoteness of Gwaihir's eyrie.

It would still take Dark Lady Galadriel's troops time to travel around Middle-earth, but Dark Lord Gwaihir could have troops on the spot very quickly. And even Gandalf on Shadowfax becomes easy pickings.

The Free Peoples would become more like the Prarie Dogs of Middle-earth.

 

[Siberian]

Lol, good point.

 

[Deathpool]

I see what you mean.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Tolkien did think of it and mentioned it in his letters. As I recall, he said that the eagles were too dangerous to be used in that way.

Also, the eagles felt an obligation to Gandalf, but that would not necessarily extend to Elves or Mankind. It is altogether likely that they would not care to take on such a perilous mission, nor feel that their own future was threatened by Sauron in the same way that earth-bound peoples did.

Finally, there was a sense at the Council of Elrond that those who were there had not been brought together at that particular time and that particular place by accident. It was for them to decide the fate of the Ring and for one of them to try to bring about its destruction. There were, of course, no eagles present.

 

[ray gower]

Would the Ring and it's effects have any interest to the Eagles?
Dominion over all man/elf/dwarf kind comes very low down on the pecking order, somewhere behind the irritating habit of rabbits disapopearing underground I'd have thought.
So realistically we have a neutral party, who is sympathetic, but has a vested interest on being on the winning side?

 

[HareBrain]

Tolkien did think of it and mentioned it in his letters. As I recall, he said that the eagles were too dangerous to be used in that way.

I think you're referring to Letters #210, where he says:

"The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. "

This is in the context of a film-maker wanting an eagle to land in the Shire, and was written well after LOTR's publication. It doesn't necessarily show that he thought in advance of the idea of the eagles carrying the ringbearer to Mount Doom. And by "dangerous" he surely meant to himself as an author (and to his book) rather than to the characters. (Which may have been what you meant.)

Also, the eagles felt an obligation to Gandalf, but that would not necessarily extend to Elves or Mankind. It is altogether likely that they would not care to take on such a perilous mission, nor feel that their own future was threatened by Sauron in the same way that earth-bound peoples did.

I would have thought that Sauron overrunning all of Middle Earth would impact on the eagles. Giant eagles need an awful lot of prey, and it's unlikely that the wilderness around the Misty Mountains would be left pristine.

As for obligations, aren't they descenants of Thorondor and his kin? I'd have thought that if they retained language, they would also have retained some of the allegiance to Manwe that they had in the First Age. Why did they turn up at the Black Gate if they set themselves so apart from the affairs of humans and elves?

 

[Dozmonic]

I had written this this morning but must've not clicked send ;-)

The eagles would be just as open to being manipulated by the ring as anyone else. The hobbits show exceptional resistance to its will, above and beyond all others. This is why it is they who must carry the burden. Even a long way off from Mordor it drives Boromir insane. Closer to Mordor it drives Frodo insane. Frodo has time to adjust to it and use his exceptional resistances to protect himself as best he can from it and even he gets overcome. An eagle bearing it at high speed would have the sudden onset of desires from it, because it's not just how long someone has the ring but the manner in which they have it and how close to Mordor it is. Sam finds it exceptionally heavy, but in the Shire there's never a mention of it being anything like that.

In the end they weren't suited to the role.

 

[Overread]

Well the Nazgul's mounts were only rider less in the early stages as Sauron wanted to operate in secret and not openly - giant monsters flying over the lands would be a rather tipping of the scales early on - something that the elves and Gandulf could have used to unit men early one against Sauron - and he needed that divide in them to win. So the mounts would still have been accessible to the dark lord in some form (and I am sure they would love to just be let loose to kill little birdies).

Also as for the birds I am sure the ring would have an effect on them - sure they are not men, but they still have territories and ranges to defend - what if one could rule all the lands - fly from one end of Middle earth to the other - be ruler of all the skies etc... I am sure the dark lord could sway at least one if not more enough to cause a fight in the air. And it would only take one and the dropped ring to lose it and allow Sauron to ensnare another man/dwarf/elf under his power as they looked round the ground to find it (most likely over a forest - water would be a bad spot).

Further its a very overt method for the alliance to take - sure the eagles could get very close to Mordor quicker but then what is left - they can't enter they would be seen very quickly - and remember Frodo only got near because all of Sauron's forces and attention was on the Black Gate - remove that distraction and I think even Frodo might not have got through - at the very least the eagles would have been noticed - and then the rider would have to have fought through to the forge.

Then there is the nature of the eagles themselves - aloft, not really that worried about men and such. They might feel duty to Gandulf enough to aid, but I think the ring carrying might be too much for them.

In the end though we do have to accept that the writer chose the story not to take this path - ergo whilst we can think of obstacles against it there is always the possibility that it would have worked in the world as well. Also I think we have to look to Gandulf as well - he might have deliberately avoided that method of approach - the eagles, the elves they were all backseat players in the game - men, dwarfs and hobbits were the main races that would be left to the world - who would shape and rule the lands and I feel that he wanted to make sure that they were ready for such a role. Additionally I think he privately wanted to give the hobbits something big in the world - for before the Ring is destroyed they are just farmers in a corner of Middle Earth, not really that important to men nor dwarfs but fertile land that could be taken with relative ease - though I think Aragon would not have done so I think making the hobbits heroes in that way Gandulf helped to ensure that they were now considered more highly than they were before - Merry and Pippen also did a lot to aid this as well in the eyes of men.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Perhaps the most succinct answer is that it wasn't Gandalf's job to choose the Ringbearer.

 

[Overread]

But he sort of did - he could have chosen not to bring the ring to the council at all and instead acted on his own ideas - instead he brought it before the council to decide.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

No, because he wasn't sent by the Valar to Middle Earth to make that kind of decision.

 

[Overread]

ahh true I see your point!

Though perhaps it opens up the question of how much the wizards had to adhear to their missions - Gandulf though seems to follow his duties closely - the two how went into the far East we have no idea of. Radagast is said to have followed his due, though it seems that he slinks away in the LotR events - doing what he must, but not really with his heart in the battle. Sarumon though we see breaks his rules - though with aid of the Dark Lord - so one has to wonder if he can break those rules could not the others also - with time- break their rules, or bend them to suit their own needs based on their experiences in Middle Earth?

Though I think you are right he was not sent to solve the problem himself, but to se middle earth solve it

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Sarumon though we see breaks his rules - though with aid of the Dark Lord - so one has to wonder if he can break those rules could not the others also - with time- break their rules, or bend them to suit their own needs based on their experiences in Middle Earth?

Yes, but as we can see in the case of Saruman no good comes of their breaking the rules, and indeed many ill things result. This is why Gandalf is wise to stick to his mission.

 

[lunamoth]

I love LotR, read the books many years ago and watch the movies frequently.

However, must say that the first time I saw RotK and those eagles flew in to pick up Frodo and Sam, my reaction was 'Doh! Why didn't we use the eagles to get into Mordor!'

Would have ended up a rather short book.