Why are Dany's dragons not common knowledge?

[thesoothsayer]

I think that their existence should at least be known to those involved in the GoT but the Westerosis seem to be treating them as fables.

I find it strange that they sent Jorah to spy on her and sent assassins after her but completely stopped keeping tabs on her after the assassination attempt failed. Even if Jorah stopped reporting to them before the eggs hatched, shouldn't they have continued keeping tabs on her through some other spy? And it's not like the dragons are a closely guarded secret. Word of Dany's usage of them to conquer the 3 slaver cities should have been more widespread than it is, surely?

 

[TK-421]

I think they had bigger fish to fry, like the war between the four would-be-kings and a starving population, than some fantastic stories about dragons who anybody alive in Westeros today, have never seen in their lifetimes.

Robert was the only one who paid special attention to Viserys and Dany because they were Targs and he made it his life mission to rid the world of all Targs. Those who enherited the Iron Throne after Robert (i.e. the Lannister clan) are somewhat less concerned over some little girl in a far away land. They have also shown how short-sighted they can be (yes that includes Tywin). Only Tyrion ever cared.

 

[Bazza]

Don't forget Varys and Littlefinger are there subtly destroying the credibility of any statements which might threaten their interests. Varys especially will seek to misdirect any misgivings regarding any threats Dany might pose. We do know he is allied with Illyrio, whom is supporting Dany. Remember the scene with Ser Alliser and his warning about the Others to the north? He even had proof with him, to an extent. No one believes in wives tales these days.

 

[thesoothsayer]

Just read the sample chapter about Tyrion in GRRM's website. Is that the only place that showed that Magister Illyrio was linked to Varys? Was it Varys or Petyr that told Ned that he prevented Robert from hiring a Faceless Man (in AGOT) by talking about the cost (or something like that)?

Allister's proof had rotted away. Of course, a better King would have realised that the NW had nothing to gain from from more men but I guess that they thought that it would be easier to kill the survivors from the fight between the NW+Northerners vs the King Beyond the Wall than help the NW and leave the Northerners unscathed by the wildlings.

Still, I find it hard to believe that they let Dany's off so easily. Especially since she had people around her who could thwart the attempt of a Faceless Man on her life. I would have redoubled the effort on her life. Or did Varys not report their failure? That would be unlikely to me. I guess that they didn't care enough, like you said, but that just bothers me.

 

[Werthead]

The timeline in the novels is not as straightforward as it appears, and a lot of Dany's chapters (particularly at the end of ASoS, which is only when knowledge of the dragons becomes widespread in Slaver's Bay) overlap with the opening of AFFC. It's not until we're a fair bit into AFFC that the first news really starts arriving and most of that is disregarded by Cersei. And as other have said, no-one buys some fantastical story about something happening four thousand miles away.

The only problem here is Euron, who knew the dragons existed and even where they were right at the start of AFFC. Even assuming the Iron Island chapters take place later than they appear to, it's still a difficult stretch working out how he knew about them and then got back to the far side of Westeros quite quickly.

Remember that magic still exists in the East and all it would take would be for someone from Westeros to travel to Qarth or Asshai and see some shadowbinders or Qartheen warlocks doing something crazy, but yet the Westerosi believe the magic is a myth and a fable, even though half the world still uses it. In this society, unless you see something with your eyes, you are likely to just disregard it as misinformation and lies.

Is that the only place that showed that Magister Illyrio was linked to Varys?

No. The first place we saw that was in AGoT when Arya saw them together in the crypts

 

[TK-421]

Let's not forget that Cersei is kind of stupid and wouldn't know a dragon until it toasted her well-done.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Why are Danny's dragons not common knowledge?

Let's not forget that Cersei is kind of stupid and wouldn't know a dragon until it toasted her well-done.

I'm not sure that Cersei is stupid. While she's narrow in her focus at times, and clearly let's arrogance get the best of of her at times, her ability to plot/scheme is impressive IMO, and while someone such as Littlefinger is clearly her superior, it's not like she's a drooling moron when dealing with him. My assessment is that she's as bight as Jaime, nearly as bright as Tywin, and not in the same class as Tyrion

 

[TK-421]

Sorry, Imp but have to agree to disagree. Cersei is just plain dumb. Anyone who let herself get caught in a lie the way she did with the Kettleblack brothers and let the Faith essentially take over the Kingdom can't think past their upturned noses.

In contrast Jaime has shown more brains than his sweet sister lately. While Tywin was no louch I think he's bit overated as this supposed great mastermind. Tyrion could run circles around him to the point where he put an arrow through him while he was pinching a loaf.

 

[The Imp]

Sorry, Imp but have to agree to disagree. Cersei is just plain dumb. Anyone who let herself get caught in a lie the way she did with the Kettleblack brothers and let the Faith essentially take over the Kingdom can't think past their upturned noses.

In contrast Jaime has shown more brains than his sweet sister lately. While Tywin was no louch I think he's bit overated as this supposed great mastermind. Tyrion could run circles around him to the point where he put an arrow through him while he was pinching a loaf.

I agree that she screwed up "royally" in dealing with the Faith/Kettleblack issue, but I think what will emerge is that she was brought down (at least temporarily) by a greater mind. As for Tywin, I've never thought of him as being a great master mind, but rather, someone who possessed a very good military and political mind. Having said all of that, I don't think any of the Lannisters (with the exception of Tyrion) had/have enough intelligence to make a significant mark on Westeros had they not been born into royalty.

 

[TK-421]

Having said all of that, I don't think any of the Lannisters (with the exception of Tyrion) had/have enough intelligence to make a significant mark on Westeros had they not been born into royalty.

That was very well put.

 

[The Imp]

That was very well put.

Thank you

 

[devilsgrin]

have to disagree in regard to Tywin... he did turn the House of Lannister from door-mat gold supplier of Westeros, into the single most influential House in the Seven Kingdoms... no ifs or buts on that. His cunning ability to have the Throne at his mercy under both Aerys and Robert was very impressive... all those loans and the money owed to him gave him immense power over the Kings... even though Aerys tried to steal his son, and Robert didn't care how the money was repaid... Tywin and House Lannister controlled the Kingdom, from the treasury after Roberts rebellion, and even literally whilst he was Hand - and whilst he was Hand, he did everything he could to moderate what Aerys was doing, whilst, of course, amassing ever more power.

Tyrion was his true heir in Cunning that is true... but Tyrion was shunted aside as Hand (though he was never actually the Hand, he was Hand-in-place-of-Tywin) as if he was nothing, he was a tool in Tywin's hand, and Tyrion didn't expect that - which shows his limitations. Tywin knew his son much better than Tyrion knew his father.
his patricide certainly doesn't make him any smarter... in fact it shows rather the opposite. Such a lazy revenge... and murdering Shae... that was actually a funny thing for him to do... to think that she had EVER actually liked him... ROFLMAO.

I would imagine that regardless of his station in life, Tywin would have excelled wherever fate had chosen to place him, be that a peasant farmer, an artisan, or a noble. Even as a minor Lord or landed Knight he would have risen to some sort of prominence.
As it was he was fortunate (or not) to be born into an ancient House, with centuries of honour and reputation to support it, and live up to. He most definitely did.
Perhaps his only limitation was his ego-centricity. Everything was about him, and the Glory of House Lannister.... the beautiful daughter married to the King, the handsome Knight (though stolen) mightiest in the Kingdoms, the Richest, the most Powerful, even tyrion's mind was something for him to at least acknowledge as gifted, if not be proud of, all of this was a reflection of His Glory, and anything that did not affect that eminence would have been of minimal importance. Certainly Dany's dragons would have been dismissed as fanciful rumours.

 

[TK-421]

Well, even Tywin who is so "cunning" doesn't recognize the danger that Dany poses to the Lannister rule nor the fact that the small folk have turned against them and would support any populist (like the Faith or Dany) that can save them from starvation and war.

 

[Sapienti]

One thing you have to keep in mind is that in Westeros there are always fanciful tales spreading about that are just ridicculous exxagerations of events from people who didn't witness things. Like how the story of Tyrion being born and his mother dying was warped into him clawing his way out of her womb and killing her in the process simply because he later got an evil spin put on him. People are going to hear stories about wargs, Others, and children of the forest but they're not going to believe them because thanks to the citadel they don't exist anymore since magic is dead. Thats why Maester Luwin didn't believe any of Bran's stories.

Nobody is going to believe any sailors tales or slave's stories about dragons because according to the citadel they're all dead and all attempts to hatch the eggs have failed. But once the stories start getting more and more spread out people may start to pay more attention. Right now, Dragons in Westeros are going to seem about as plausible as the loch ness monster or big foot. Some want to believe but the majority will remain skeptical.

 

[devilsgrin]

Dany - at least at present - possesses no fleet of ships to transport an army to Westeros... she is therefore not much of a threat to anyone in the Seven Kingdoms, save only as a rallying point for dissidents opposed to Lannister (notably those in Dorne). No doubt Tywin would have had a plan should she obtain the necessary armada of ships needed.
I have no doubt that the small folk would follow anyone wth a carrot on a stick. The Faith is more likely than Dany. Dany's arrival would guarantee war.

 

[Raven]

I find it strange that they sent Jorah to spy on her and sent assassins after her but completely stopped keeping tabs on her after the assassination attempt failed.

'They', in this case, means Varys. Jorah worked for him, and so far as we know nobody else in Westeros even bothered to spy on Dany. And since Varys appears to have some interest in keeping the stories of dragons from being believed, it makes perfect sense that they are not.

 

[Werthead]

'They', in this case, means Varys. Jorah worked for him, and so far as we know nobody else in Westeros even bothered to spy on Dany. And since Varys appears to have some interest in keeping the stories of dragons from being believed, it makes perfect sense that they are not.

Yup. Plus, Robert was the one obsessed with killing the Targaryens. No-one else really gave a toss about them as long as they were out of the picture and unable to form a threat. It was at Robert's insistence that Varys kept tabs on what Dany and Viserys were up to all this time. With Robert's death, I severely doubt that any of the other claimants to the Iron Throne really give a flaming toss about the situation, and I doubt Varys would be volunteering intelligence about Dany to anyone.

I think I indicated this earlier, but the question about dragons can be applied to magic. Go to Qarth, and you can see basilisks and, if you really want to, you can try to get an audience with a warlock. Or go to Asshai and check out the shadowbinders. But most people in Westeros can't afford to do that or cannot be bothered, and the few who do are not believed, so for 400 years people in Westeros have assumed that magic is a myth and a fable even though it is still extant over half the globe. Same with the dragons.

"Show me the dragons! What, if I want to see them I have to travel three thousand miles? That's convenient. You're a damned liar!"

 

[Raven]

Yup. Plus, Robert was the one obsessed with killing the Targaryens. No-one else really gave a toss about them as long as they were out of the picture and unable to form a threat. It was at Robert's insistence that Varys kept tabs on what Dany and Viserys were up to all this time.

Not quite true, Wert. Varys himself certainly 'gave a toss' and would undoubtedly have kept tabs on the Targaryens whether Robert cared or not. The same applies to the Martells. Also, it seems likely from hints in AFFC that LF has at least kept one eye on what Dany is up to.

I think it's possible some others might have taken an interest too, were it not for Robert's death and the war.

 

[thesoothsayer]

I think I indicated this earlier, but the question about dragons can be applied to magic. Go to Qarth, and you can see basilisks and, if you really want to, you can try to get an audience with a warlock. Or go to Asshai and check out the shadowbinders. But most people in Westeros can't afford to do that or cannot be bothered, and the few who do are not believed, so for 400 years people in Westeros have assumed that magic is a myth and a fable even though it is still extant over half the globe. Same with the dragons.

"Show me the dragons! What, if I want to see them I have to travel three thousand miles? That's convenient. You're a damned liar!"

I would have thought that the less educated people would be more superstitious and more believing of these fantabulous stories. I think if you look at our world, people in ancient times believed in all sorts of magic arts and fantastic beasts, and only became more skeptical and knowledgeable once the level of education and travel increased.

Of course, we haven't had the POVs of the less educated and lowly people of Westeros, so we don't really know what they believe in but I would think that most of them would believe in stories of magic and dragons.

Your explanation would make sense for the more educated Lords and Ladies of Westeros that we have become so familiar with (and are probably the only people whose opinion really matters in Westeros).

 

[Werthead]

I would have thought that the less educated people would be more superstitious and more believing of these fantabulous stories. I think if you look at our world, people in ancient times believed in all sorts of magic arts and fantastic beasts, and only became more skeptical and knowledgeable once the level of education and travel increased.

Of course, we haven't had the POVs of the less educated and lowly people of Westeros, so we don't really know what they believe in but I would think that most of them would believe in stories of magic and dragons.

Your explanation would make sense for the more educated Lords and Ladies of Westeros that we have become so familiar with (and are probably the only people whose opinion really matters in Westeros).

That's a valid point. I don't think we've had much, or any, commentary from the Faith about the role of magic in the role. They may be stamping out all such talk as heresy, which would definitely explain its decline amongst the smallfolk. We know the maesters are trying to destroy the notion of magic entirely, but their interaction with the smallfolk appears limited.