The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other musing

[Kalhaven]

I am currently going back through ACOK and reading about the ominous comet that makes its big appearance at the beginning of the book. The comet is interpreted differently by the various groups and characters. Melisandre is telling Stanis it’s a sign from R’hllor, the Lannisters are blathering some nonsense about it being King Joffrey’s comet, Dany relates it to dragons, etc. What do you all think the Comet represents, means, or portends? It could be nothing, just an interesting phenomenon that takes place during the course of the story.

But it got me thinking about the seasonal changes in ASOIAF and the coming of Winter and the Others. Is it possible there is some strange property of the comet that is causing the changes, and maybe it is on some periodic course through the cosmos above Westeros that happens only every several thousand years?

I though I read somewhere or another that GRRM stated there would be an explanation for the length and frequency of Winter, and why it is on such a sporadic schedule. I am hoping the reasoning will be fantastical in nature, and not based on some scientific law related to our world (like gravity of the comet, or some nonsense). Anway, I am really interested to see what all of your theories are on this. And if this has been rehashed already, I apologizeJ

 

[Werthead]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

There is a hint that the seasons were 'normal' up until the Long Night of 8,000 years ago, and the invasion of the Others threw them out of balance.

Based on this, there have been theories that the Others' continued existence is keeping the seasons irregular, and if they are destroyed, defeated or neutralised, normal weather will return to the world.

It has been suggested that the varying lengths of the seasons depends on who is in the ascendence in the war between R'hllor and the Great Other. When R'hllor is on top, there are long summers and short winters, and when the Great Other is winning, the winters become longer. It is assumed that the winter which is beginning at the end of AFFC will be the longest and worst since the War for the Dawn.

 

[Bazza]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I think everyone sees what they want to see in the comet. But I think it was made for Dany. It appeared on the night of the awakening of her dragons. The Undying told her they sent the comet to lead her to Qarth. She does discover many powerful prophesies and visions in the House of the Undying.

 

[JoanDrake]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I think I've finally figured out how the seasons work.

The planet Westeros is on is a hot gas giant. They're very common according to the latest discoveries from Kepler. They have one side which is around 4000F and another which is absolute zero. Being closer to their primary than Mercury they are tidally locked.

Not good for life in general BUT they do have a permanent and fairly temperate twilight zone, which is all important. The planet wobbles, due to complicated interior reactions powered by the tidal forces and these wobbles cause the seasons, as the TZ dips slightly more into the cold side and then the hot one. These wobbles are naturally both irregular and decades long

Complex interior reactions also give it a strong vulcanism and considerable outgassing allows for a CO2 atmosphere which gives us oxygen if you have plants.

Planet in general is metal poor, which accounts for both lower than expected gravity and freezing of technology at medieval level. But they do have a small iron core and a very active interior due to tidal forces, so a strong magnetic field protects them from the radiation of the the sun.

Magic is accounted for by the fact that the inhabitants are not natives. They are survivors from another smaller and earthlike planet which was gravitationally thrown out of the Solar System by the Gas Giant moving in. The magic left is the remnants of the high tech they had which enabled them to see the disaster coming and move. Their origin may truly be 8000 years ago but maybe closer to 8 or 80 million or, going the other way, possibly 800, the distortion being caused by the collective trauma such a catastrophe would leave in their psyche.

The wights and first people are slaves and/or lower animals the migrants brought along. Their magic could come from the fact that some of the migrants gave them something to defend themselves from their more merciless compatriots, hoping they could eventually all learn to live together

The only thing I can't account for is day and night, they shouldn't have any.

Whattaya think?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I think I've finally figured out how the seasons work.

The planet Westeros is on is a hot gas giant. They're very common according to the latest discoveries from Kepler. They have one side which is around 4000F and another which is absolute zero. Being closer to their primary than Mercury they are tidally locked.

Not good for life in general BUT they do have a permanent and fairly temperate twilight zone, which is all important. The planet wobbles, due to complicated interior reactions powered by the tidal forces and these wobbles cause the seasons, as the TZ dips slightly more into the cold side and then the hot one. These wobbles are naturally both irregular and decades long

Complex interior reactions also give it a strong vulcanism and considerable outgassing allows for a CO2 atmosphere which gives us oxygen if you have plants.

Planet in general is metal poor, which accounts for both lower than expected gravity and freezing of technology at medieval level. But they do have a small iron core and a very active interior due to tidal forces, so a strong magnetic field protects them from the radiation of the the sun.

Magic is accounted for by the fact that the inhabitants are not natives. They are survivors from another smaller and earthlike planet which was gravitationally thrown out of the Solar System by the Gas Giant moving in. The magic left is the remnants of the high tech they had which enabled them to see the disaster coming and move. Their origin may truly be 8000 years ago but maybe closer to 8 or 80 million or, going the other way, possibly 800, the distortion being caused by the collective trauma such a catastrophe would leave in their psyche.

The wights and first people are slaves and/or lower animals the migrants brought along. Their magic could come from the fact that some of the migrants gave them something to defend themselves from their more merciless compatriots, hoping they could eventually all learn to live together

The only thing I can't account for is day and night, they shouldn't have any.

Whattaya think?

... Nah, its magic.

When bran is falling (in his dream) the 3eyed crow tells him to look north where he sees far beyond the wall and sees the "heart of winter" whatever is there scares the daylights out of him, and the 3eyed crow says that bran needs to wake up because of what he sees in the heart of winter. I think Werthead has the right of it. When the Great Other is strong, winter comes and the white walkers come. Probably for the past few thousand years the great other hasn't been that strong and the white walkers that come are dealt with by the children of the forest which we know still live north of the wall. This time, there are too many walkers or too few children and the White walkers are running rampant.

As for the comet, I think it was for Dany but I dont think it was sent by the house of the undying. though I think they way in which everyone reacted to the comet was equally important to the story.

 

[Yavannie]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I think it's magic. Imagine the anticlimax if the seasons were actually explained "scientifically" in the books! In my opinion it's one of those things that don't really need an explanation when it comes to fantasy literature. I'm OK with endless winters and draughts, corruptions of the land and underwater cultures. It's all magic and it's all good.

Do we know much about the weather in the Free Cities and the rest of Essos? Did some light research online and found quotes stating that the waterways in Braavos get frozen over, but then again Braavos is quite far north. I'm thinking the rest of the 'world' doesn't get hit as bad by the long winters as Westeros?

I'm half hoping that the Narrow Sea will freeze over and that Daenerys can simply march her army across, hah. Doesn't sound plausible though, does it?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I'm half hoping that the Narrow Sea will freeze over and that Daenerys can simply march her army across, hah. Doesn't sound plausible though, does it?

Wouldn't THAT be something! I hadn't even considered that.

to go south you must go north, to go west you must go east. Maybe Dany will go round the world and march accross the the frozen bay to bear island. Bear Island could be the new dragonstone.

 

[Yavannie]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

to go south you must go north, to go west you must go east. Maybe Dany will go round the world and march accross the the frozen bay to bear island.

OK, mind now officially blown. I reckon that bit of crackpottery is even better than mine. Although I'm not sure how the continents link up - in the pictures I've seen Essos ends in the Shadow Lands with loads of sea beyond that.

 

[Gumboot]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I think I've finally figured out how the seasons work.

The planet Westeros is on is a hot gas giant. They're very common according to the latest discoveries from Kepler. They have one side which is around 4000F and another which is absolute zero. Being closer to their primary than Mercury they are tidally locked.

Not good for life in general BUT they do have a permanent and fairly temperate twilight zone, which is all important. The planet wobbles, due to complicated interior reactions powered by the tidal forces and these wobbles cause the seasons, as the TZ dips slightly more into the cold side and then the hot one. These wobbles are naturally both irregular and decades long

Complex interior reactions also give it a strong vulcanism and considerable outgassing allows for a CO2 atmosphere which gives us oxygen if you have plants.

Planet in general is metal poor, which accounts for both lower than expected gravity and freezing of technology at medieval level. But they do have a small iron core and a very active interior due to tidal forces, so a strong magnetic field protects them from the radiation of the the sun.

Magic is accounted for by the fact that the inhabitants are not natives. They are survivors from another smaller and earthlike planet which was gravitationally thrown out of the Solar System by the Gas Giant moving in. The magic left is the remnants of the high tech they had which enabled them to see the disaster coming and move. Their origin may truly be 8000 years ago but maybe closer to 8 or 80 million or, going the other way, possibly 800, the distortion being caused by the collective trauma such a catastrophe would leave in their psyche.

The wights and first people are slaves and/or lower animals the migrants brought along. Their magic could come from the fact that some of the migrants gave them something to defend themselves from their more merciless compatriots, hoping they could eventually all learn to live together

The only thing I can't account for is day and night, they shouldn't have any.

Whattaya think?

It's biologically impossible for an earth-like environment to survive or develop on a gas giant. There's a whole host of issues, but the main one is that only the inner core is solid, and the heat and pressure at the core is so extreme there's no way life could survive, let alone evolve.

 

[JoanDrake]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

... Nah, its magic.

When bran is falling (in his dream) the 3eyed crow tells him to look north where he sees far beyond the wall and sees the "heart of winter" whatever is there scares the daylights out of him, and the 3eyed crow says that bran needs to wake up because of what he sees in the heart of winter. I think Werthead has the right of it. When the Great Other is strong, winter comes and the white walkers come. Probably for the past few thousand years the great other hasn't been that strong and the white walkers that come are dealt with by the children of the forest which we know still live north of the wall. This time, there are too many walkers or too few children and the White walkers are running rampant.

As for the comet, I think it was for Dany but I dont think it was sent by the house of the undying. though I think they way in which everyone reacted to the comet was equally important to the story.

Okay, it's magic to them. Any sufficiently advanced tech is magic and besides, they've forgotten there even is technology.

The Heart of Winter as being a place of permanent darkness, at nearly absolute zero and about 20x the size of their whole world would fit quite nicely and be scary as hell.

The comet says an especially big wobble is coming.

The two big time Gods are supercomputers, buried somewhere and both having gone crazy as most supercomputers seem to do. They control a lot of the magic.

The Dragons are the only indigenous species, native to the hot side. This is why they are immune to fire. Dany's ancestors were genetically engineered to be like them.

Core of the planet isn't iron, it's metastable metallic hydrogen left from the original gas giant which has had most of its other atmosphere blown away by the primary. This accounts for low gravity and high magnetism. What they live on is a thin crust formed when a small, rocky planet hit the gas giant as it spiraled in.

Still can't figure night and day, maybe clouds from vulcanism? If seasons vary why shouldn't daylight?

 

[JoanDrake]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

It's biologically impossible for an earth-like environment to survive or develop on a gas giant. There's a whole host of issues, but the main one is that only the inner core is solid, and the heat and pressure at the core is so extreme there's no way life could survive, let alone evolve.

I didn't say it evolved there, it moved there, after it (they) realized the gas giant was spiraling in and about to destroy their original home world. And it isn't on the whole planet, just in the Twilight Zone between the cold and hot sides, (which could easily still be larger than our whole Earth) The atmosphere is not the original one, which has been blown away by solar wind from the primary, but continually replenished from Vulcanistic outgassing and then circulates from the hot to the cold sides over the centuries.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

... Nah... Still Magic.

I would be very disapointed if any of this turned out to be true. I don't like, for a second, the idea that the gods are computers. I think the most important thing to remember, above all other things, is that this is a fictional universe, not subject to science or logic.

Also, you said first that the Dragons were the only native inhabitants, then you said that life didn't evolve there....

 

[JoanDrake]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

... Nah... Still Magic.

I would be very disapointed if any of this turned out to be true. I don't like, for a second, the idea that the gods are computers. I think the most important thing to remember, above all other things, is that this is a fictional universe, not subject to science or logic.

Also, you said first that the Dragons were the only native inhabitants, then you said that life didn't evolve there....

I said the humans on Westeros didn't evolve there, nor did most of the life that lives on Westeros. Who knows what evolved on the hot or cold sides of the gas giant? Not life like ours, certainly, but I believe firmly that life not at all like ours exists on many, many places very different from Earth.

Everything is subject to some sort of science or logic. As Heinlein said "One man's magic is another man's engineering, 'supernatural' is a null word." and "To be matter of fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy, and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful."

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I said the humans on Westeros didn't evolve there, nor did most of the life that lives on Westeros. Who knows what evolved on the hot or cold sides of the gas giant? Not life like ours, certainly, but I believe firmly that life not at all like ours exists on many, many places very different from Earth.

Everything is subject to some sort of science or logic. As Heinlein said "One man's magic is another man's engineering, 'supernatural' is a null word." and "To be matter of fact about the world is to blunder into fantasy, and dull fantasy at that, as the real world is strange and wonderful."

On this, at least, you and I (and Heinlein) agree.

 

[Gumboot]

Re: The length and frequency of Winters, the significance of the Comet, and other mus

I didn't say it evolved there, it moved there, after it (they) realized the gas giant was spiraling in and about to destroy their original home world. And it isn't on the whole planet, just in the Twilight Zone between the cold and hot sides, (which could easily still be larger than our whole Earth) The atmosphere is not the original one, which has been blown away by solar wind from the primary, but continually replenished from Vulcanistic outgassing and then circulates from the hot to the cold sides over the centuries.

A gas giant is fluid. You can't live on a fluid planet.