Sci-Fi/Fantasy: Gay characters?

[Anne Lyle]

Baron Harkonnen was a paedophile - not the same thing. Yes, we see him molesting a boy slave, but still, not the same thing.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I can't believe nobody's mentioned Heinlein. His characters generally expressed the sentiment that homosexuality and heterosexuality were both signs of a limited mind, and most were openly up for anything. There were bisexuals, and incestuals, and transsexuals, and a man-become-woman-through-brain-transplant which was bisexual in both directions at once. He had many polyandrous marriages, line marriages, group marriages, triads, you name it. Really quite an enlightened old fellow.

 

[HareBrain]

Baron Harkonnen was a paedophile - not the same thing. Yes, we see him molesting a boy slave, but still, not the same thing.

Paedophilia is an interest in prepubescent children. I'm not making any excuses for the baron, but the slave certainly wasn't that.

 

[Anne Lyle]

It's a long time since I read it, but IIRC the slave was chosen for his resemblance to Paul, who is only 14 at the beginning of Dune. Even if it's not technically paedophilia (the slave might be slightly older than that), it's as near as dammit.

The "gay pervert" trope is just...nasty - I'm uncomfortable using the word "gay" to describe a man who likes to fondle helpless youths, regardless of their exact biological or legal status.

 

[HareBrain]

The "gay pervert" trope is just...nasty - I'm uncomfortable using the word "gay" to describe a man who likes to fondle helpless youths, regardless of their exact biological or legal status.

Absolutely it's nasty, and I understand where you're coming from, but I'm also uncomfortable with the tabloid-driven extension of the definition of paedophilia, because it is such an explosive term, probably one of the most damaging allegations that can be levelled against anyone, and one that should therefore be restricted to those to whom it genuinely applies. I admit I was going only by the film version, where from memory (only seen it once) the slave looks around eighteen. Fourteen is pretty borderline, but I have heard the term used to describe attraction to even mature post-pubescent minors, which, if not something we want as a society, is hardly the pathology that paedophilia is. Perhaps Baron Harkonnen's sexuality should just be defined as "pus-bag", and remove gender altogether.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I think we can agree on that

 

[nightdreamer]

I think the correct term for Harkonnen would be "ephebephile." But age preference and gender preference are pretty much orthogonal, so he can still be gay. But "pus bag" is about the best description of him so far.

 

[Boneman]

Yeah, but imagine if that Reverend Mother hadn't infected him with that virus thingy so he remained slim and virile and handsome... Naturally, that was nothing to do with Frank Herbert, was in prequel and exceedingly awful it was...

I recall a series that did have a gay guy in it, and his portrayal was done very well. Can I remember the name of the books? Nope... oh, wait a minute... The King's ******* by Rowena Cory Daniells!* Strange ice-skating, and in the end too many unrealistic threads for me, I lost interest. But worth a look for the character, definitely.

A client of JJ, I believe - he posted on this thread way back when it started!!

 

[Anne Lyle]

This indeed an old thread! I just read back through it all and saw that I initially described my protagonist as straight - but that was when I was still in the early stages of major revisions. Mind you, his best friend was straight too in the very first draft of the book, but I had too many main characters so I merged him with another character who was gay from the beginning.

I agree with a long-ago comment that the "gayness" is rather unsubtle in The Steel Remains, but I still love Ringil for his defiance in the face of a culture that makes even the worst modern states look tolerant.

 

[Anisa]

My friend loaned me The Steel Remains, but I haven't gotten to it yet.

There's a few more books with gay side characters, but as a protagonist I'd say it's still fairly rare.

(Anne, this is Laura L).

 

[Anne Lyle]

Hi Laura!

 

[Susan Boulton]

Note to all not commenting on any writer here, just remarking on a trend I am seeing.

I lurk on a number of writing forums and I have noticed that, “I need to have a gay character,” seems to be the new, “got to have a strong female kick ass character syndrome,” for a lot of aspiring writers. This character is then thrown into the mix, a lot is made of their sexual orientation without much thought to actually creating a, “rounded character,” their orientation being the be all and end all of their existence in the plot. The aspiring writer is, sadly, only following a current trend as it has appeared in number of TV shows, published novels and films recently and it annoys the hell out of me. A gay character, like a heterosexual, black, male, female, or a green with purple hands character should exist in a story as a whole person, not a one-sided,overblown version of one part of their nature. Though their sexual orientation can be used to colour the mores of their world and how that said world reacts to them, and they to their world, it should on no account be the only reason they exist in a story.

My current WIP is set in a WWII POW camp. The intense friendships between the men, as well as the equally intense dislikes created by such a closed community caused a blurring of the lines with regards to sexual orientation and a tolerance not the norm for the times was prevalent. Are any of my characters gay? Yes, no, maybe. I prefer the reader to make up their own mind. I want, no, prefer to create whole characters whose individual personality adds to the story rather than label them by their gay or not gay status.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I agree that tokenism is a bad thing, but I guess we have to go through this stage, just as we went through the same process with female and PoC characters. We need more good writers setting an example of how to do it right

 

[Montero]

Juliet McKenna does a nice, rounded secondary character who happens to be gay in her original Einarrin series - the series starting with The Thief's Gamble.

I think the key point with all of this is that unless the sexual preference of the character is a major point of the story, then as much attention should be given to it as someone's preference in food. It is part of them, it may or may not emerge during the story depending on circumstances and relevance.

 

[Mouse]

Can't say as I've noticed any 'token' gays in TV shows, films, or published novels recently. But I agree with the 'fully rounded' thing. Every character should be that.

As for novels, you know, I can't think of one at the minute.

 

[TomS]

In my WIP, I've made one vague reference to members of a crowd that are gay. And I recently decided that one of my non-main female characters is gay. I've made nothing of it at this point and certainly won't make it cheap if I do.

 

[kaal]

In one WIP (a novel that's ready for 2nd draft/edit), one of the second-stringers (the protagonist's substitute father-figure) is gay. It's not a major theme, but he's in there.

 

[Anne Lyle]

Of course there'll always be some readers who complain whatever you do. I had a review on Goodreads this week that said that my secondary plot was just an excuse for a bunch of gay men to hang out together.

I love it when readers project their own biases onto a narrative

 

[Mouse]

...my secondary plot was just an excuse for a bunch of gay men to hang out together.

Even if that were true, it sounds excellent!

I keep meaning to ask/find out, Anne, I know your MC is a girl who dresses up as a guy and your other character is gay... Please tell me that they don't get together anyway, even after he finds out she's a she (presuming he does)? Reviews I've read seem to say that this is the case, but I don't think it can be!

 

[Anne Lyle]

I keep meaning to ask/find out, Anne, I know your MC is a girl who dresses up as a guy and your other character is gay... Please tell me that they don't get together anyway, even after he finds out she's a she (presuming he does)? Reviews I've read seem to say that this is the case, but I don't think it can be!

Heh, no, that's not the case at all - I'd never write anything that cheesy! Some of the reviews are a bit vague/inaccurate and it's easy to get confused as to who they're talking about.

Mild subplot spoilers:

The MC is actually Mal, who is bisexual but not interested in my heroine until he finds out she's female, because as a boy she looks too young for his tastes. Mal's best friend (friend with benefits?) is Ned, who is gay. Ned will flirt with anything that has a Y chromosome, but he definitely doesn't need "the right woman" to straighten him out!

Hope that clears things up