Janny Wurts: Are the Koriathain misguided, corrupted or evil [SPOILERS]

[dekket]

Well I was probably a bit remiss by not including spoilers in the original title, so the amendment is fine.

Originally posted by Grimward

Apparently, while the Mistwraith's geas abrogated free will (and so was suppressed by Alithiel's song), the spell on Parrien, etc. wasn't oppressive enough to qualify.

As the possession of Seldide by Morriel is most definately an abrogation of Seldide's free will, would the song have caused Morriel any difficulties if Morriel/Seldide had not been protected by the Koriani chanting of a spell of protection?
Or is the Koriani oath (sworn over the Skyron crystal) such a total submission to the Prime's will, that even the song of the Paravian blade is not enough to dislodge the old crones essence?

Any suggestions what it would take to free Seldide from Morriel's possession?

 

[Clansman]

The F7's knowledge that it has occurred. Remember, it occurred back in Grand Conspiracy (or Peril's Gate, I forget which), when Morriel assaulted Sethvir's earthsense by disrupting the lanes, which started to unravel some of the Grimwards. Sethvire languished for three long novels, close to death, trying to keep the Grimwards intact, so he could not sense Selidie's possession when it occurred, and is not aware of it now because of the way in which that old witch accomplished it.

 

[Tier s'Ffalenn]

If I could throw my two cents in, aren't the Koriathain trying to safeguard the heritage of humanity as the guardians of the knowledge of their star-faring, pre-Athera civilization? Some slack could be cut, because the Compact is pretty difficult for humanity to bear.

The reason Davien is called the Betrayer is that he caused the rebellion of the town born against the Clans, because of the inherent instability of that system. The town born became, over time, more and more resentful of being prevented from doing normal human activities in deference to Paravian requirements.

The Koriathain, though their methods are sometimes coercive, are trying to pull humanity out of this situation.

All that being said, I am being a bit of a devil's advocate. My screen name is a dead giveway of my sympathies. Great site that you have here.

 

[Grimward]

Welcome, Tier s'Ffalenn, to the Chrons. Beware of its intoxicating qualities, or you'll find yourself wandering back to it all ridiculous hours of the night, chanting "Must post, must post, must post.....".

Dek, you do raise an interesting point about the true Selidie. I inclined to think that, since the oath is given thru choice (however questionable that may be in some cases), the witches have essentially agreed to be bound by such. As a by-product of their having exercised their "free will" in making the oath, the prime's hold over them is proof against happenstance Paravian intervention. I would not extend this "exemption" to direct and intentional Paravian intervention (e.g., the Sunchildren's exorcism of the Mistwraith's geas in Arithon), which is seemingly unparalleled on Athera.

The Koriani came to Athera along with the rest of humanity, seeking sanctuary. They, along with the rest of humanity, were granted it conditionally. Their current views on Paravian requirements were apparently not enough to sway their forebears, Your Grace, because they accepted the terms of the compact. No, in this we see the need for domination again on the part of the Prime, who chafs to impose her will on an ever-widening field of subjects....

So..once again, the Prime (at least) is evil.

 

[Grimward]

(Uh oh, feel a Gollum (Tolkien's, not the esteemed moderator here!) moment coming on....)

And where in the cold hard landses has The Procrastinator gotten to, we wonders, ach, yes we do, preciousssssss......

 

[The Procrastinator]

(The Procrastinator pokes head around door - sorry boys, I'm on hols and with limited net time, so I won't be saying much for another day or two! Have fun storming the castle...)

 

[dekket]

Originally posted by Clansman

The F7's knowledge that it has occurred. Remember, it occurred back in Grand Conspiracy (or Peril's Gate, I forget which), when Morriel assaulted Sethvir's earthsense by disrupting the lanes, which started to unravel some of the Grimwards. Sethvire languished for three long novels, close to death, trying to keep the Grimwards intact, so he could not sense Selidie's possession when it occurred, and is not aware of it now because of the way in which that old witch accomplished it.

Sethvir has known of Morriel's possession of Seldide since the moment it happened.
Asandir made a comment (after returning to Althain tower, after the aborted attempt to rescue Fionn from the Koriani trap at Jaelot) about having "at least, by the clear terms of the compact, reason at last to put an end to Morriel's reign of self-righteous power".
After Asandir had left, Sethvir said to Luhaine
"I couldn't tell him - Not now. Not about Morriel's unconscionable possession of that misfortunate young initiate."
It was then pointed out that the fellowship could not touch Morriel as long as her spirit seized sanctuary inside the body of the victimised girl.

The Fellowship is unable to end Morriel's possession of Seldide.
Direct Paravian intervention would likely do so, if and when a Paravian presence is returned to the continent.
The Dreams of a Drake could re-weave Seldide whole, except no dragon has ever known Seldide unpossessed.
The arts of Athera's masterbard should be able to free Seldide, but hopefully Arithon will not be face to face with Morriel anytime soon.

Originally posted by Tier s'Ffalenn

aren't the Koriathain trying to safeguard the heritage of humanity as the guardians of the knowledge of their star-faring, pre-Athera civilization? Some slack could be cut, because the Compact is pretty difficult for humanity to bear.

Morriel's goal is to restore humanity to a interplanetry society, and she does not care how many worlds need to be sacrificed to do so.
To the Koriani Prime, Athera is a resource to be used/consumed and then discarded, and the Compact is all that is preventing this happening.

Of course Morriel does not know that the Compact is pretty much all that is preventing humanities extinction - as soon as Paravian survival is threatened, the Drake's binding will be invoked, and the Fellowship will complete the eradication of humanity.

 

[Grimward]

After Asandir had left, Sethvir said to Luhaine
"I couldn't tell him - Not now. Not about Morriel's unconscionable possession of that misfortunate young initiate."
It was then pointed out that the fellowship could not touch Morriel as long as her spirit seized sanctuary inside the body of the victimised girl.

The Fellowship is unable to end Morriel's possession of Seldide.
Direct Paravian intervention would likely do so, if and when a Paravian presence is returned to the continent.
The Dreams of a Drake could re-weave Seldide whole, except no dragon has ever known Seldide unpossessed.

I think the best Arithon could do would be something similar to Alestron, where he needed his masterbard's keeness of pitch AND Alithiel, and even then, all he would likely be doing is restoring Selidie's freedom to choose. Should Selidie choose to be free, the Fellowship would then have both grounds (which they already have) and means (by Selidie's assumed subsequent request) to enact intervention. Do we know, however, that Selidie's spirit still exists within her body?

 

[Clansman]

Okay, as I mentioned elsewhere, I really, really need to do a re-read. I am just guessing from memory here.

 

[Grimward]

(The Procrastinator pokes head around door - sorry boys, I'm on hols and with limited net time, so I won't be saying much for another day or two! Have fun storming the castle...)

And to finish the quote from The Princess Bride....

Wife: "Do you think it will work?"

Miracle Max: "It'd take a miracle."

 

[dekket]

Originally posted by Grimward

Do we know, however, that Selidie's spirit still exists within her body?

I don't remember it ever being stipulated one way or the other.

 

[Grimward]

OK, the re-read bug has caught me, too. I've picked up Grand Conspiracy with the intention of isolating this one (if possible) and also looking for the sequence where Asandir/Sethvir flashes back to when they entered into the compact to see if it has any goodies for our dragon questions.

 

[dekket]

Perhaps it is time for a Great Drakes of Athera thread?

I have been reading Mistwraith again, and the thought crossed my mind as to how different events would have turned out if Lirenda hadn't taken such a disliking to Elaira, and hadn't sent her north to Erdane on messenger duty (as a punishment).

Would the first Koriani meddling (using a different initiate as the tool) into the affairs of Lysaer and Arithon have then only happened at a much later stage (perhaps around the corination)?

 

[Grimward]

I'm not sure about the first meddling, Dek, but I DO distinctly remember thinking that if Lirenda were only a little less haughty, or even a better listener, that she'd have made a rather formidable opponent (remember that Arithon at the point we're talking about hadn't REALLY tapped into Alithiel's capabilities yet). Going further, if you introduce even the slightest element of compassion into Lirenda's character, you'd probably have her sympathizing with Elaira to some degree, leading to either a much earlier subjugation by Morriel, or a successful revolt against Morriel (remember that Morriel's physical health is extremely poor before she possesses Selidie). And with a little more compassion, the assessment of the Koriani changes to a house divided, perhaps...

 

[Clansman]

But how could Morriel's subordinates revolt? They'd have to do it in a way that didn't kill her and allowed for the succession to Prime to take place, and I don't see a way that could happen. I don't think a revolt against the Prime could ever be an option inside the ranks of the Koriathain, but I seem to remember some references to "problems" in the Order in the distant past.

Worth a look, anyway!

 

[Grimward]

I think I've noted this before in this thread (if not, I should have!). There had to be a first Prime at some point, didn't there? There wasn't a predecessor Prime to hold that Matriarch's hand. Maybe the issue isn't as much with the Prime as the lack of solid candidates to succeed her (Janny has made this point for other reasons and in other contexts numerous times...). Maybe the phrase "Ya just can't get good help anymore" is applicable to the Order, too....

 

[The Procrastinator]

Well, that's one of the reasons Morriel has gone round the twist - she's been forced to hang on to the job for much too long because no appropriate candidate for succession has been found. If she was in this situation whilst in her prime (*coff*, couldn't help myself) she probably wouldn't have made some of the decisions she's made out of desperation - or even senility.

I wonder why this dearth of initiates with enough power?

I know its technically not possible to rebel against a Prime, with the sisters being subject to her will and so on, but if there were a number of candidates with enough power and training to take on the top job, perhaps a challenge could be issued? If the ultimate challenge for a candidate is to take on and control the Great Waystone, perhaps a challenger could step up to do so, forcibly removing the influence of a serving Prime? Possible?

 

[dekket]

It was my understanding that the final trial to prove right of succession of the First Senior to become the Prime Matriarch was the Great Waystone. Only the Prime can control the Waystone, and the presence of the Prime would be required to oversee the attempt. No First Senior trained by Morriel had survived the attempt, and Morriel had doubted Lirenda would survive the attempt untill her distraction (by Arithon) was ended.
I believe that part of the shock of the Senior Circle at the succession of Prime Seldide was that they had not expected such a junior initiate to be able to survive the Great Waystone.
The lack of candidates able to be trained to the 9th level, and the low rate of survival of the final trials to Prime accession, is the reason Morriel had to hang on for so long, and was the reason she final descended to Possession to ensure the Succession.

 

[Clansman]

I think I've noted this before in this thread (if not, I should have!). There had to be a first Prime at some point, didn't there? There wasn't a predecessor Prime to hold that Matriarch's hand. Maybe the issue isn't as much with the Prime as the lack of solid candidates to succeed her (Janny has made this point for other reasons and in other contexts numerous times...). Maybe the phrase "Ya just can't get good help anymore" is applicable to the Order, too....

I believe that it was way back in CotMW, or perhaps it was SoM, that Sethvir noted that the bound energies of the Great Waystone had become too great for a successor to handle (though I think he thought that Elaira could handle it). Similar to a computer with too much stuff on its hard drive, the Waystone has become too burdensome for a new Prime to master it.

 

[Grimward]

So....does that apply to any new Prime, regardless of whether they're assisted by Morriel/Selidie? Not that the witch is in any hurry to address succession, now that she's stolen a young, healthy body...

Now it's shame on me, forgetting these tidbits! Although, in my defense, Curse of the Mistwraith seems like half a lifetime ago....