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Janny Wurts: Are the Koriathain misguided, corrupted or evil [SPOILERS]

Althain's Warden

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Ross, When they join the order they have to swear an oath of obeidiance (usually using the skyron crystal thing- since they'd 'lost' the great waystone) most of the time they act with autonomy however as soon as the prime wishes she can invoke the oath and have complete and utter control, no exceptions - at least so far as J Wurts has shown us so far !
Kinda makes you wonder why anyone would join the order really doens't it?! :D
By the way Ross, Nice comment to clansman:D Lets just hope you haven't crushed his spirit too much cos he has some good things to say.
 

dekket

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Kinda makes you wonder why anyone would join the order really doens't it?! :D
Since the rebellion the Koriani mostly seem to harvest their talent from the orphanages. I doubt the young girls taken to become novices believe they have much choice in the matter, not having any other options.

Previously it was a source of pride for a family to have a daughter join the order. I would guess family expectations would have been difficult to ignore.

But I wonder if the order pre-rebellion was a better organisation than it has since become?
 

Althain's Warden

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I would say almost definately, i can believe that way back it actually was just focused on doing good in the immediate sense, rather than sacrificing morals in the hope of a 'greater good' style long term gain. And really pre morriel was probably an improvement lol :D
 

Clansman

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Also, pre-order the Koriathain had stolen and warped the knowledge from the Beidar, which led to the creation of the necromancers (2 orders of which remain, the Gray Kralovir having been destroyed). So, they were not too benign before the Rebellion or the invasion of the Mistwraith. They still forced debt and obligation on people in exchange for their "beneficence". The Sisters were Twisted long before Morriel came along...
 

dekket

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Initiates Trial Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers

The Koriathain were dabblers and collectors of tidbits, until they uses kidnap, torture, and drugs to steal the Biedar initiate secrets, yet still all in the name of the greater good (human mercy). It seems that even before planetfall on Athera the sisterhood had a very dark side.
 

aussie500

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Well even in the short story Sundering Star, we can see they were a secret order dealing in deception, so if they were at the right hand of any governments, the people they were manipulating probably knew nothing about it. And it was questionable how the order was gaining all these children without parents back then that supposedly needed protection. If their parents had been killed of in some conflict the Koriani might have had a hand in it. Certainly they were not after Scathac's tribesmen for any humanitarian reasons, it was just another grab for power. If the Koriani were dabbling in politics, conflict and deception with aims of accruing power before the human civilisation was destroyed, they never changed that much at all. They just got more powerful, and the Primes grip on her order got tighter to the point they are now more slaves doing whatever the Prime wants now.

And considering what we found out about their past behaviour in Initiate's Trial, we have to wonder, did the Koriani order have something to do with escalating the conflict that destroyed the star faring civilisation who's knowledge they were set up to gather and preserve? Did mercy ever have anything to do with their reason for existing? Or was it knowledge and power all along.
 

Grimward

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***** SPOILERS WITHIN, IF YOU'VE NOT READ THRU INITIATE'S TRIAL, READ NO FURTHER!*****


Did mercy ever have anything to do with their reason for existing? Or was it knowledge and power all along.
There are, of course, those within the order to who adhere to the tenets propped up as the order's public facade (although I agree that we meet very few of them!). It was an interesting twist to watch Glendien's daughter serve as the Biedar's vehicle for aiding and protecting Arithon, but we clearly see that she joined the order for ulterior motives, so she doesn't count.

I have this idea that those who actually do strive to serve mercy and good within the order will be a small but ultimately telling thorn in Morriel/Selidie's side and plans. Pure conjecture, of course, but there you have it......
 

The Procrastinator

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Why do people apostrophise plural's? Is it capital
Probably more SPOILERS

I think you're right Grimy. The more we learn about the Koriathain as the books go on, the blacker they are revealed to be, as an organisation. This is in keeping with Janny's free-will theme - setting them firmly against the Sorcerors, who seek permission from the elements as the basis of their power, while the Koriathain impose their will - control and dominion is their basis. I am sure there will be a twist fueled by this contrast before the books' end, and that the Koriathain will be firmly bitten by their own snake as a direct consequence of their controlling methods. *coff*Lirenda*coff*
 

Clansman

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Probably more SPOILERS

I think you're right Grimy. The more we learn about the Koriathain as the books go on, the blacker they are revealed to be, as an organisation. This is in keeping with Janny's free-will theme - setting them firmly against the Sorcerors, who seek permission from the elements as the basis of their power, while the Koriathain impose their will - control and dominion is their basis. I am sure there will be a twist fueled by this contrast before the books' end, and that the Koriathain will be firmly bitten by their own snake as a direct consequence of their controlling methods. *coff*Lirenda*coff*
I think Janny has put down enough foreshadowing on this particular point that the surprise will be "how" it happens, not "if". Morriel/Selidie has been hoist on her own petard before, but not with dire consequences. Arithon is prophesied to be her downfall, but as with most prophecies, it is the actions of those to whom the prophecy applies that tend to make it come true: A man often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it. Had Morriel been supportive of Rathain's prince instead of naming him Enemy, it is likely that there would have been a very different outcome for the Koriathain. However, Morriel and the upper ranks of the Koriathain would have had to have been remarkably different for them to be supportive of Arithon. They only support something when it serves their own desire to acquire power.

The Koriathain are remarkably corrupt, and if we had any doubts, IT really showed us how bad they are.

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR INITIATE'S TRIAL BELOW....







Just look at how they blithely sacrificed the lives of so many novices in black, necromantic practice in their conjury aimed at the Light soldiers capturing Arithon and Tarens. The upper ranks of the Koriathain must be broken, as they seek the old model of human dominance, as opposed to the new model offered by the F7, namely the Law of the Major Balance.
 

aussie500

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Back early in the series we found out the Koriani code forbade murder, and yet by Initiate's Trial Selidie/Morriel is openly murdering not only her own, but still trying to kill Arithon as well. The tragedy there is Morriels attitude, that her initiates are disposable cyphers for her to use, abuse and sacrifice for what she wants. Seems to me her greatest asset is not the proscribed knowledge of a dead civilisation, or her cache of offworld crystal, her greatest asset is the human talent she has in the order. If the red banded vipers of the administrative ranks have been corrupted a bit, and their matriach is mad on hatred, greed and power, the lower ranks who make up the majority seem genuinely keen on charitable service. It is just the head of the order that needs to go, and all of their coercive, practices.

I suspect Morriel might get a second chance to be something else yet, the hint in what the Biedar Eldest said about reconciling things seems to indicate she might be able to atone for her past. If not Luhaine's hopes for her seem fitting.

'May her black heart char for eternity, and her spirit twist in the lightless pits at the negative pole of creation.'

She likes the dark so much, and is hell bent on destroying everything, it would be a fitting place for her.
 

aussie500

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Not expecting Luhaine to be there, but I am expecting Arithon, Elaira, Lirenda and the Waystone to be there. I would think if a Fellowship Sorcerer were there, Selidie/Morriel would not be getting up to any trouble. Which is perhaps a similar reason for Seshkrozchiel being absent till it is too late, would be pretty hard for Arithon to get anything done with a dragon standing watch over him. And yet we were given the hint Seshkrozchiel is going to notice Arithon eventually, so probably she will not be napping long. Things seem to be speeding up pretty fast, unless Arithon takes a nap as well, or loses his memory again.

I could never work out though, Luhaine is discorporate, why does he need to take a nap just because Seshkrozchiel does? Davien was not inactive when she was sleeping before, maybe it is part of the bargain the sorcerer must stay with her, but what is he going to do with all that spare time? Polish scales?
 

dekket

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Spoilers for Destiny's Conflict.

Not expecting Luhaine to be there, but I am expecting Arithon, Elaira, Lirenda and the Waystone to be there. I would think if a Fellowship Sorcerer were there, Selidie/Morriel would not be getting up to any trouble.
Well Elaira wasn't there, but everyone else was.

I wasn't sure if Kharadmon was there in the background, but Asandir's oath would have prevented him acting in any case.

I wonder if the outcome with Morriel and the Waystone would have been different if they hadn't tried it on Rathain crown soil?
 

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