R. Scott Bakker - The Prince of Nothing Series

Anomander

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
88
Has anyone read any of these books? I'd like to have an opinion, good or evil.
 

Thadlerian

Riftsound resident
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
989
Very good books, very rich on ideas that might not necessarily be associated with Fantasy - constructivist approaces on how words, emotions, and irrational belief and assertions limit the scope of the human mind's perception. And what happens when a human being suddenly appears who is pure rational. How he, knowing which words push which buttons in people's heads, manipulates nearly everyone he meets.

And a great setting and character gallery, of course. But all that's secondary to the ideas.
 

Rane Longfox

Red Rane
Joined
Jul 30, 2004
Messages
2,651
I had mixed feeling about the series. The writing was sumptuous, and the characterisation was second to none, but it got too repetetive for my liking, and the ending was a bit unsatisfactory. Plus, how goddam ANNOYING was Kelhus? And Serwe for that matter. I was banging my head against every brick wall I saw by the end.
 

Jarshen

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2007
Messages
138
Location
Dawn in a desert.
The first book was very different, lots of promise and a main character, Achamian, I think that was sympathetic, but increasingly the main hero? Kelhus became cold distant and obnoxious. For me this carried on with the other two more difficult novels.

Frankly I was disappointed. From a good start it lost human interest.
 

Werthead

Lemming of Discord
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,047
I think it is a masterpiece but certainly not a flawless one. My review:

This is a more recent work of epic fantasy that has been a major critical success in recent times, with the author going from being unheard of to mentioned in the same breath as Erikson, Kay and Martin in just three years. This, then, is The Prince of Nothing Trilogy.

The Prince of Nothing is a series that also forms the opening three books of a much longer sequence (at least seven volumes in length) called The Second Apocalypse. As the title hints, the books revolve around - once again - the return of an ancient evil to a world that no longer believes in it. However, Scott Bakker writes in a manner far more reminiscent of Frank Hertbert than say Robert Jordan, mixing philosophical ruminations with explosive action sequences and machivellian politicking.

The setting is Earwa, a continent which resembles Europe in the Hellenistic era, although the technological level is more reminiscent of the Crusades. The new Sharia of the Thousand Temples of Inrithism has called a Holy War against the heathen Fanim, vowing to drive them out of the Holy City of Shimeh and recover it for the Faithful. The Nansur Emperor, Ikurei Xerius III, is determined to mould the Holy War to his design.

The plot of the Holy War is essentially that of the First Crusade transported to a much colder and more brutal secondary world. The Prince of Nothing is a somewhat pitiless series. Like George RR Martin, Bakker has no qualms about killing major characters or showing the ugly, horrific side of war. Enormous battles, particularly in the second volume, are described with enormous skill, but they aren't the focus of the trilogy. Instead, the focus is squarely on the characters.

Ansurimbor Kellhus is the Prince of Nothing of the title. A member of an
ancient and forgotten order called the Dunyain, Kellhus is a master manipulator of human thought and emotion, able to bend people's wills to his design by knowing their histories: what has come before determines what follows. This aids him on his quest to find his father, Moenghus, who long ago fled to Shimeh and 'went native', to the Dunyain's disgust. Along the way, however, Kellhus discovers that the evil Consult, the powerful force that served the No-God in the First Apocalypse two thousand years earlier, has returned. The non-human Consult and their skin-spies stand outside Kellhus' experience and knowledge, representing a challenge he cannot ignore.

The other main principal character is Drusas Achamian, a member of the Mandate. The Mandate knows that the Consult and the No-God will return and have stood guard against them for millennia, but their order is mocked throughout the Three Seas. Only their knowledge and mastery of the Gnosis, the most powerful form of sorcerery known to mankind, ensures their survival in the face of jealous rivals such as the Scarlet Spires or the Nansuri Saik. Like all members of the Mandate, Achamian, or Akka, is visited each night by terrible nightmares of the First Apocalypse, a warning left behind by their founder Seswatha so that may never forget their duty. Achamian's lover, the prostitute Esemenet, is another key character. Although her significance is perhaps unclear at the start of the series, she eventually moves into a key position and she is one of our main POVs on events in the series.

Cnaiur is a Scylvendi barbarian warlord, chieftain of the Utemot and a warrior beyond compare. The self-proclaimed 'most violent of all men' is haunted by memories of Ansurimbor Moenghus, who passed through the Scylvendi lands decades earlier, and for the chance to destroy Moenghus he eagerly sides with Kellhus and the Holy War. Meanwhile, Ikurei Conphas, nephew of the Nansuri Emperor and one of the most gifted generals alive, battles to seize control of the Holy War and direct it on the course his uncle has chosen.

The Prince of Nothing is not a fluffy epic fantasy full of farm boys saving the world and virtuous princesses cooped up in their towers. It is dark and it is often brutal. There are rays of light penetrating the gloom - moments of good humour and fellowship - but these are few and far between. Yet it is compellingly readable. Bakker has a superb prose style, easy to follow yet packed with information that rewards careful reading and re-reading. In this sense he is very similar to Frank Herbert, and indeed The Prince of Nothing often feels like an epic fantasy version of Dune, reinforced by the fictional quotations that open each chapter and the absolutely massive glossary that makes up nearly a fifth of the third volume. Bakker is interested in philosophy (indeed, his masters' degree in the field was put on hold whilst he worked on this trilogy) and this comes through in the books, with characters frequently pondering the nature of life, of war and of thought. The shadow of Nietzsche lies heavily on the books in particular. Whilst it never overwhelms the plot (the philosophical interludes are delivered in bite-sized chunks rather than massive info-dumps), some may find that this slows down the proceedings. I can say I didn't, and tore through all three books in a matter of days.

The Darkness That Comes Before opens proceedings well, but it is a somewhat slower book that introduces the concepts and the characters. The main focus of the book is on the build-up to the Holy War, on the political strife between the kingdoms contributing to the crusade and on Akka's discovery of the first evidence in two millennia that the Consult is on the move. There is a huge, fascinating battle sequence that establishes key character motivations and relationships for later events in the trilogy, but generally this is a set-up book, as first volumes usually are.

The Warrior-Prophet is the story of the Holy War as a third of a million soldiers traipse south through burning deserts and across dry rivers, their eyes fixed on distant Shimeh. Akka and Esme come to the fore in this book as the battle for control of the Holy War rages amongst the higher echelons and, almost hidden from view, Kellhus slowly weaves himself a new identity and purpose. Whilst The Darkness That Comes Before was a powerful work, The Warrior-Prophet is an astonishing one, eliminating many of the first book's minor problems (the slower pace, the slightly longer musing on philosophy) and delivering an avalanche of intrigue and action. Individually, it is one of the best fantasy novels published in the last decade.

The Thousandfold Thought sees the Holy War finally arrive at Shimeh and begin the final battle against the Fanim. As the action unfolds outside the city's walls, Cnaiur and Kellhus must seek out Moenghus and learn the final revelation of the Thousandfold Thought, a secret which puts Kellhus on a very different road to the one he was pursuing before. Whilst Bakker successfully and somewhat elegantly resolves the story of the Holy War, the stories of our main characters is very much left open. For that reason the book suffers somewhat, although this problem will fade when the next part of the overall sequence is released.

The Prince of Nothing is a major, key work of modern fantasy that deserves to be read by all with an interest in the genre. It divides opinion massively between those who think it is too cold, too brutal and too dark to read, and those who think it borders on genius. I quite happily fall into the latter category.

The Darkness That Comes Before (2003, ****), The Warrior-Prophet (2004, *****) and The Thousandfold Thought (2005, ****) are published by Orbit in the UK, Overlook in the US and Penguin in Canada.

Scott Bakker has since completed work on an SF thriller named Neuropath, which will be published by Gollancz in 2008. The Great Ordeal, Book 1 of The Aspect-Emperor, will be published in January 2009 in the UK, picking up the storyline twenty years after the events of The Thousandfold Thought. It is already my most anticipated book of 2009. The second book in the duology will apparently be called The Horns of Golgotterath.

There is another great review of the series here by the currently on-hiatus I Hope I Didn't Give Away the Ending.
 

shadow9d9

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
104
I had mixed feeling about the series. The writing was sumptuous, and the characterisation was second to none, but it got too repetetive for my liking, and the ending was a bit unsatisfactory. Plus, how goddam ANNOYING was Kelhus? And Serwe for that matter. I was banging my head against every brick wall I saw by the end.

The ending was my favorite ending to a series, period. It was perfect and daring and still leaves me with awe.

It has become my favorite series. Yes, give it a try.
 

GOLLUM

Moderator
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
9,035
Location
Australia
I think it's an excellent debut series, one of the best EPIC series going around today...
 

Anomander

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Messages
88
I think he's a good writer, quite intense, not for the faint hearted. Gritty, tough stuff, not fluffy and flowery like many authors tend to be. I'm starting book2 soon - I'm going to break to read the new JV Jones novel
 

cape_royds

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
59
Frankly, I sympathized most with Cnaiur and kept hoping the Invincible Kellhus would get whacked. However, Bakker must be praised for skilfully creating the most monstrous protagonist of any major fantasy series I've ever read.

The first and second books were the best, in my opinion. I found some of the conclusions in The Thousandfold Thought a little bit too forced, with many of the characters sort of fading into the background, but I'll re-read the series in a while and see if I still think that way. There are always other uses...
 

redjako

New Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
3
Very good books, very rich on ideas that might not necessarily be associated with Fantasy - constructivist approaces on how words, emotions, and irrational belief and assertions limit the scope of the human mind's perception. And what happens when a human being suddenly appears who is pure rational. How he, knowing which words push which buttons in people's heads, manipulates nearly everyone he meets.

And a great setting and character gallery, of course. But all that's secondary to the ideas.
I would add Highly philisophical on man (and women), emotions, causation, actions etc.

One of my favorite series, I've read it three times :D

Kellhus itself is the most interesting character in the sense that Bakker's writing style will sometimes catch the READER off guard and believing the *crap* that Kellhus is using to manipulate nations :D
 

Hypnos164

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 30, 2008
Messages
476
Three books of unremmitting suffering and manipulation ... the only reason anything good happens to any of the characters is so it can be ripped away from them; brilliant.

The idea of "the darkness that comes before" is interesting and rooted in real philosphy and conciousness research - but the books never, quite, descend into a platform for Bakker to expound his theories (see Neuropath).

I found Achermain (sp? - The Mandate Schoolman) to be the only, even slightly, sympathetic character.

Fantastic series ... waiting for more of the follow up series to be written before starting in on it as Bakker indicated that he intended to produce the next three books at a slower pace than the burnout inducing 1/year of the first three.
 
Top