City of Secrets edited for swearing

[Mary Hoffman]

I've had the edits from Bloomsbury on City of Secrets and they arte quite light - fewer and less demanding changes than usual.

However anything even remotely appraoching a swearword has been cut. I don't mean in Talia, where people swear by the Goddess and that is apparently OK, but in 21st century london, among 17-year-olds.

"It was a bummer having a birthday so near the beginning of term" changed to "it was annoying" ,"She looked like ****" changed to "she looked terrible", "Jammy bugger" changed to "jammy so-and-so". etc. etc.

I think real life 17-year-olds would be saying "f***in' hell" and so on and I haven't chanced my arm on that. But the effect of these changes is to etiolate my characters. Is it worth having one more round of resistance with my editor?

I'd be particularly keen to hear from teenage fantasy readers on this subject. Thanks


Mary

 

[Lenny]

I'd have a crack at another round of resistance.

Looking at the changes you've posted, particularly these two:

"It was a bummer..." to "It was annoying..."?
"Jammy bugger" to "Jammy so-and-so"?

Is your editor faint of heart, by any chance?

I fit into the real-life 17 year old category, and I wouldn't consider either of the two to be swearing, and I seriously doubt that a 17 year old Londoner would give them even a first thought. OK, "bugger" might be something one wouldn't repeat around ten year olds and younger, but as far as I can tell, your audience is a bit older, so why should it matter? I guess that through these characters you might be trying to get your audience to relate with them, and that's going to be a lot harder if said characters don't 'talk the talk'.

I might agree with the change to "She looked terrible", but only if your audience is also faint of heart, under the age of ten, and has lived a very secluded life, away from those foul-mouthed Londoners and the intarweb.

And from a fantasy readers point of view - if you can't name ten books with swearing in them, that are aimed at the same age range as yours, then I'll give you fifty pounds.

The short of it - there's no real reason for what you've written to be taken out.

 

[Mary Hoffman]

Thanks, Lenny! That's what I thought.

Mary

 

[dustinzgirl]

I'm old and I say bummer, dude! LOL--product of the 80's am I! I really didn't see anything wrong with the word usage. Your editor would probably have a heart attack around my younger sisters, they swear more than I do. F this and F that---its the rap music, I tell you!

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Did something change? Is there more swearing in this one than in the previous books in the series? (Even so, this is pretty mild stuff.) Or is your editor suddenly making a fuss about things that have gone unremarked before?

Because if it's the latter, I think you would be well-justified in a) protesting, and b) requiring an explanation.

 

[Mary Hoffman]

Did something change? Is there more swearing in this one than in the previous books in the series? (Even so, this is pretty mild stuff.) Or is your editor suddenly making a fuss about things that have gone unremarked before?

Because if it's the latter, I think you would be well-justified in a) protesting, and b) requiring an explanation.

The awful thing is that I can't remember! The adolescents in the first book were 15 and now the new characters are 17/18, so I think a slight shift would be in order. But I agree it's pretty mild stuff. Fellow authors on another forum have all agreed quite vehemently that it would dilute the impact of the book to have phrases like "so-and-so" which weren't in use even when I was a teenager!

The thing is, it isn't crucial to to the plot but I feel my charcaters being taken away from me and someone else telling me how they should speak/think. That's what I find difficult.

Mary

 

[TruBellezzan]

I think there was some swearing occasionally in the first three books, I remember reading it and noticing it quite recently.

It's true that most teenagers would probably say what you've put in your books. I'm sixteen, I do it. But I can see why your editor's done it - if you look at the covers and the style of your books, swearing just seems wrong somehow. I just get that feeling when characters swear in your books - the books are so nice and it seems out of place sometimes.

Having said this, having the language watered down can also seem out of place; I think what you've put is hardly worth editing. "Bugger" and "bummer" wouldn't seem wrong at all. Perhaps "she looked like ****" would make me think "ooh-er" a bit, but otherwise I think your editor's gone a bit overboard.

 

[Mary Hoffman]

It's true that most teenagers would probably say what you've put in your books. I'm sixteen, I do it. But I can see why your editor's done it - if you look at the covers and the style of your books, swearing just seems wrong somehow. I just get that feeling when characters swear in your books - the books are so nice and it seems out of place sometimes.

Oh, Tru, I so don't want my books to be NICE! Anything but that. It makes me sound bland and unchallenging as a writer. I agree that you wouldn't want a Talian saying "bugger" but I only ever do it - and that very lightly - with the 21st century teenagers in the real world.

It's part of showing how our world is different from the world that contains Talia - though woe betide anyone who thinks that the silks and satins, horses and carriages mean that Talia is a NICE place!

Mary

 

[speakmoretti]

Tell your editor that J K Rowling got away with "B*tch"

 

[Lenny]

Can I ask what the final outcome of this incident was, Mary?

Did you stick it to those mean and nasty editors?

 

[j d worthington]

Frankly, I think this is ridiculous. Yes, it's a good idea to be careful about language in a YA book, but some of these strike me as flat-out from La-La Land... "bummer" especially sticks out... In what sense is this even vaguely connected to swearing?

NOUN:

1. Slang An adverse reaction to a hallucinogenic drug.
2. Slang One that depresses, frustrates, or disappoints: [SIZE=+0]Getting stranded at the airport was a real bummer.[/SIZE]
3. 1. A loafer or idler.
   2. A beggar.

[FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]ETYMOLOGY:[/SIZE][/FONT]
From [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]bum[/SIZE][/FONT] 1 adj.. Sense 3, probably from German Bummler, loafer from bummeln, to loaf

From my point of view, it might be helpful to have a sensible idea of, if you'll pardon the phrase, just what the devil constitutes swearing.....

 

[Mary Hoffman]

Thanks, all, for your support. The story isn't quite ended yet but I'll keep you posted.

I did the edits on the second draft, changing one or two of the contentious passages but keeping "Jammy bugger", "poor sod" "looking like ****" etc. My editor professed herself delighted with my changes but requested cutting the prologue, extending the epilogue and adding one scene - previously only reported - in the last chapter.

It has now gone to the copy editor, who will complete her work before Christmas. I'll look at it in the new year. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there weren't a few further suggestions of toning down the language even though I think the "swearing" in thsi book is very mild.

Another Bloomsbury YA author told me she got away with "looked like ****" in one of hers so I can cite precedent! I will let you know the outcome.

Mary

 

[GOLLUM]

Good luck Mary.

Seems a little non-sensical to me what they're doing to your text.

Sometimes swearing is relevant to the setting or mood you are attempting to paint. Most teenagers I know say a lot worse than what I've seen here and I think we're often too precious about such things.

 

[Mary Hoffman]

Good luck Mary.

Sometimes swearing is relevant to the setting or mood you are attempting to paint. Most teenagers I know say a lot worse than what I've seen here and I think we're often too precious about such things.

Yes, exactly. Most 17-year-olds would be "effing and blinding" as we say in the UK, every other word! So my nicely behaved Matt must be allowed the odd "sod" or "bugger."

Mary

 

[TigerLilly]

Flipping heck! I'm 14 and I swear a lot! Guilty, I admit. But I feel that swearing, when not used in an offensive sense, especially in writing, should definitely be allowed. The 'foul words', as some people call them, are sometimes the only things needed to get a good effect of emotions across! Tell your publisher that. Because a 17 year old would most definetely swear! And yes, I know I spelt definetely wrong, but it's almost midnight and I'm tired ._.

 

[Mary Hoffman]

An update on this topic:

City of Secrest has gone off to the printer - yay! - after meticulously copy-editing/proof reading. All the "swearing" has been allowed to remain but I did change "bummer" to "downer" which was what I meant anyway and I didn't mind.

However, I was not allowed a reference to Fallopian tubes in the Historical Note, when I mentioned that Fallopius was one of the anatomists who worked at the University in Padua!

You never know what editors are going to object to.

Mary

 

[Mark Robson]

LOL! I would never have thought that Fallopian tubes were that racey! I remain the startled rabbit when it comes to what editors do and do not want to change. They are a breed apart, that's for sure.

 

[LyannaWolfBlood]

Since when are anatomical definitions considered unsuitable? That's really strange, IMO much worse than not allowing mild swearing. I could understand that in a YA book even if it isn't exactly realistic (I should know, I'm 17) but I do get annoyed when basic technical terms are considered unsuitable for children. I do know it's not your fault (this mini-rant isn't aimed at you) but c'mon, I thought we were past the days when showing table-legs was considered risqué.

BTW, congrats on getting the book finally and irrevocably off to the printers .