The Revised Tolkien Trivia

farntfar

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It's not what I was after TBP, but you may have a point.
I'm not sure it's true of Ithilien.

What timeframe are you using?
 

The Big Peat

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It's not what I was after TBP, but you may have a point.
I'm not sure it's true of Ithilien.

What timeframe are you using?
In Ithilien's case, all Princes post-Faramir would be descended from Eowyn and through her the Kings of Rohan - that's what I was was referring to.
 

The Big Peat

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And Arnor?

Where does the female line come into that?
"These are the names of the Kings and Queens of Númenor: Elros Tar-Minyatur, Vardamir, Tar-Amandil, Tar-Elendil

[...]

In the days of Tar-Elendil the first ships of Númenóreans came to Middle-earth. His elder child was a daughter, Silmariën. Her son was Valandil, first of the Lords of the Andúnië in the west of the land, renowned for their friendship with the Eldar. From him were descended Amandil, the last lord, and his son Elendil the Tall."

Return of the King Appendix A "Annals of the Kings and Rulers" (i) "Númenor"
 

farntfar

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Yes. It works, and it's what I hoped you'd say about Arnor.
Well done.
I think you must have it.
Because you're so close to what I'd originally thought of, and in fact your solution is far more elegant than mine.

A few points where it doesn't quite work are that for Arnor it's true before the beginning of TLofR and for Rohan only after the end, but that's perhaps splitting hairs.

My own thoughts, all of which came to be true during the last few chapters of TLotR, were simply that the uncles of the queen of Arnor (Arwen) and the princess of Ithilien (Eowyn) were kings of Numenor (Elros) and Rohan(Theoden) respectively.

So not exactly the same relationship, but very close, and certainly Arwen and Eowyn were the prime agents in both cases.

So a Distaff bell to you, to be a bit topical.
And your turn to ask the next question.
 

The Big Peat

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I much prefer your answer actually! Very clever - wish I'd thought of that.

And now I have to think of something myself. Hmm.
 

Boaz

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Well done, both of you. I was working on how both Numenor and Rohan were given as gifts/rewards for fidelity... and how the capitals of both Arnor (Annuminas and then Fornost Erain) and Ithilien (Minas Ithil) were both conquered by the Witch-King. Using those premises, I could not relate Arnor to Numenor nor Ithilien to Rohan.
 

Boaz

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In diagnosing Eowyn, Aragorn tells Eomer in The Lord of the Rings, Book Five, Chapter VIII, The Houses of Healing...

...And yet, Eomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.
 

The Big Peat

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In diagnosing Eowyn, Aragorn tells Eomer in The Lord of the Rings, Book Five, Chapter VIII, The Houses of Healing...

...And yet, Eomer, I say to you that she loves you more truly than me; for you she loves and knows; but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought: a hope of glory and great deeds, and lands far from the fields of Rohan.
Bowled very short indeed - that one's struck out of the ground! Your turn Boaz. I think I will never to find where my copies are for next time its my turn, it's rather hard without them...
 

Boaz

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It always amazes me which phrases, terms, plots, and characters resonate in each person's mind. That exact phrase "but in me she loves only a shadow and a thought" has been in my brain for forty years.

Okay... The first person declined to be comforted by the second person for lamenting beauty and the second person declined to be comforted by the first person for fearing death.
 

Boaz

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No guesses? Here's a hint: These lamentations and attempted comfortings did not happen at the same time. I feel the second is more memorable... at least to me.
 

The Big Peat

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I want to say it was Gimli who lamented beauty, but I can't remember precisely when, and I can't remember him trying to comfort anyone for fearing death.
 

farntfar

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I'm torn between Beren and Luthien or Aragorn and Arwen.

Beren laments beauty with the
Though all to ruin fell the world
and were disolved and backward hurled
Unmade into the old abyss
yet were its making good for this
The sun, the earth,
the sky, the sea
That Luthien for a time
might be.


Which I'm quoting from memory, having always loved it and I've almost certainly got lines 5 and 6 wrong.
And then I can't find a quote for Luthien declining to be conforted about death.

On the other hand Arwen is certainly refusing to be comforted about death when Aragorn willingly dies, seemingly before he has to, which Arwen doesn't understand in the appendix A of the LotR,
but I can't find where Aragorn laments beauty.

Aarrghhh!


But then TBP is right about Gimli speaking about the beauty of Galadriel to Legolas. (Or Faramir???? Now there's an idea.)

JRRT spoke a lot about the eternal natures of beauty and death actually. This is quite a question, Boaz.
 

HareBrain

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I've got no answers, I just wanted to share my grief.

Today I discovered a dried splash of soup(?) on the spine of the dust-jacket on my 1967 The Two Towers, which I'd unwisely left lying around on the floor, and in trying to clean it off I made it worse.

I DON'T WANT TO LIVE ANY MORE!!!
 

pyan

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I can talk - my first edition Silmarillion has (in black felt-tip pen, no less) a badly hand-written translation of the runes and tengwar scripts that run across the top and bottom of the title pages...:rolleyes:*

*if anyone's interested, and to make it unnecessary for anyone else to do this, it says:

the tale of the first age when morgoth dwelt in middle-earth and the elves made war upon him for the recovery of the silmarils
to which are appended the downfall of numenor and the history of the rings of power and the third age in which these tales come to an end
 

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