What is it about modern fantasy authors?

If you want to twist everything I say, McMurphy, no one can stop you.

I have, most certainly, said that readers are unadventurous, and that whatever they may intend when they go into a bookstore, when the time comes they choose to be cautious. I stand by that. Particularly since nobody here has said any different. That's not laying blame. They can spend their money how they wish. They can read what they wish. You are, in fact, the one who is characterizing what the majority of readers buy as unworthy to be published. So if anyone is insulting readers ...

As I said, the good news is that readers have power. The bad news is that the ones who are dissatisfied seldom use that power. Well, why should they, when so much misinformation -- no I won't even dignify it by calling it that, because what it is is imaginative speculation -- is being fed to them about dire conspiracies on the part of the book industry?


It's unfortunate if you choose to think like a victim, but more unfortunate still if you convince other people to feel the same way.

There are many things that we, as readers, can do -- if we understand our power.

We can think carefully before we spend our money, ask ourselves, "What message do my dollars send the book publishers? Am I telling them to publish more bloated series books, or am I encouraging them to take a chance on something new and different?"

If we find a book we really like, instead of lending it to friends we think will like it too, we can buy copies at Christmas time or for birthdays and give them as gifts.

If we don't have much money to spend on books, and we don't have a library card, we can get one and use it. (As taxpayers, we're paying for library books anyway, so we may as well read them.) Libraries usually pay attention to which books are checked out, and they buy new books accordingly. We can look out for new books by new authors that look like something we might like to read and request those books if our libraries don't have them. Again, librarians often pay attention to these things.

And when we find a new author that we like, we can talk about their books. The next time a recommendation thread comes up, instead of the knee-jerk Martin -- Erickson -- Goodkind recommendations, we can bring up that lesser-known book we enjoyed so much. We can write a Chronicles review. We can get that author's name out there.

Or we can bitch and moan and make bitter remarks, and nothing will change. I'd rather see readers who are looking for something new (a group of people with whom I identify myself) come into their power. Do I get frustrated because they don't use it? Yes. But I get more frustrated when people try to convince them that they have no power, because then they never will use it.

But if, instead of twisting my words and attacking me, you can think of any reason why it would be a bad thing for readers to become informed, think about the consequences of their spending habits, use their library cards, and talk about books they love that others may not have heard about ... by all means, let's hear it.
 
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Um, folks... we seem to be heading into personalities here rather seriously; I'd suggest we avoid that, and agree to disagree on that one.:eek:

For myself, I think that the problem -- not necessarily blame -- is on several fronts, most of which have been addressed. Publishing is a business, and (unlike an earlier day) publishers don't tend to also spend part of their budget publishing books they think are worthy regardless of market perceptions, and living in hope. They're under too much scrutiny from stockholders to do that any longer; so they will publish what the readers demand. And professional writers who put bread on the table will also follow those trends if they want to eat. Those who can afford to go their own way will do so, whether that is the way of quality, quantity, or following market trends to make more money.

Put all three together, and you're going to end up with poorer quality all 'round. That's just the way it goes.

The solution? Well, yes, if the readers decide to all ignore the pap and go for the meat, then that makes publishing meaty books profitable, and we'll see higher quality. If the publishers stop publishing pap (or cut seriously into it) in favor of meaty books, but aren't able to do decent promotion, then chances are they won't sell that well... historically, they haven't, save by rare chance. And writers ... they follow what the publishers/editors desire, or they don't get published unless it's self-publishing, or you find a very rare publisher who's willing to take a chance on a loss. But if they increase the quality of their writing, they may be able to influence readers' tastes enough to improve them somewhat, and then the meatier books will indeed become more popular... but only by a certain margin.

However, for it to really work, it takes effort on the part of all three; and in our current climate, I don't think that's very likely. We're seeing something we've seen with publishing before... the most famous example most likely being the Gothic novel, which bears an uncanny amount of similarity to the current state of fantasy today. A lot of the same things are happening now as did then, and I'm very much afraid we'll see fantasy suffer the same fate. It won't completely die out, but it's likely, within the next 20 years, to become a literary ghetto and laughingstock because it is becoming so insular and attenuated. If we, as readers, don't wish to see that happen, then we need to take care that we do vote for better work, and encourage the production of such, and send the message to publishers and writers alike; and as writers it's important to do the best work you can and still get published, and work on better work in the hopes that it will see publication before this is all done. The publishers... I'd encourage them to find ways to publish a few books now and again that they're convinced are quality writing regardless, though that may not be possible at present. There the small or POD publishers (or ebooks) may have a much better chance at making a difference than any of the major houses.

Working together, we just might turn it around. But without a concerted effort, I'm afraid the modern fantasy novel is going to go the way of the eighteenth-century Gothic, and for many of the same reasons.
 
Average price of a p/b in the UK is about $18 (Aus) or $13.50 (USA), at today's rates. How does that compare then, Cul, Teresa?
 
A bit cheaper than here. It varies from book to book, but $20 would be about the cheapest, and more often than not - certainly for heftier fantasy tomes - you'd be looking at $22 to $25 or more. Trade paperbacks are better value, strangely enough - the department stores will general carry more popular titles for between $17-$22.

The sad things is that I can remember when paperbacks were $8 here, and it wasn't that long ago, really.
 
Ahhh, nostalgia - the first ones in my collection cost me the equivalent of 65 cents (A), including the entire Lensman series (total cost, seven books: $A 5.20).
I wish I could keep my salary today, yet still buy books at that cover price - but I don't think my floor-joists could stand the weight I'd put on them!:p
 
Publishing is a business - it works by supply and demand. Readers want certain types of books, so publishers try to deliver them.

Science fiction & fantasy is something of a niche - rather than popular appeal, it's a market segment that some publishers seek to have strong marketshare in.

They don't do that by trying to publish books that readers won't like. They are always trying to deliver what people are buying and reading.

And even though giants emerge in the genre, while the publishers will seek to give these a lot of backing, they're also looking to invest in the next giants where possible.

Publishing has certainly undergone a lot of major changes over the past couple of decades - but I think it's fair to say that it's unfair to say that publishers are churning out crap for crap's sake. They're just selling what people are buying, or else go out of business.

If any particular reader feels that any particular publisher or author isn't delivering what they want, then there's plenty of other choices in fiction and non-fiction to consider.

To deride a genre, though, really says more about personal taste than anything about the genre itself.

2c.
 
Average price of a p/b in the UK is about $18 (Aus) or $13.50 (USA), at today's rates. How does that compare then, Cul, Teresa?

$8 seems to be standard for a thick mass market paperback. Trade paperbacks are less consistent. Hardcover usually runs somewhere around $25, which for me is such a big investment that I sometimes (literally) get dizzy handing the money over on the rare occasions that I buy one. I know that poor hardcover sales are less likely to doom an author than a trade paperback fiasco, however, and I know that some books never make it past TP to MM, so I'm beginning to buy more books in trade paperback. If I wait for a mass market edition that may never materialize I could lose my chance to read the book.

It is hard, though. My husband is retired and my income is very small and very sporadic. I make buying books a high priority simply because books give me more enjoyment than other things I might buy. Even so, I can't buy as many as I would like, so I have to think about each purchase.

(Being immensely old myself, I can remember when paperbacks were 25 cents each.)
 
Publishing is a business - it works by supply and demand. Readers want certain types of books, so publishers try to deliver them.

Oh, I agree with that. I am not suggesting that readers have no control over what is and what is not published. My only recommendation to avoid misleading the industry is that readers are not a singular factor in what is bond on paperback. Mainstream literature (of all genres, really) is a consumer product no less than a mainstream film, oil painting, or video game. The publishers of these types of products are interested foremost in one thing: getting as much of a return in their investment. To do this, the products that are more typically published in the mainstream circuit are going to be normally as easily accessible as possible to gather as much potential readers/viewers/gamers as can be mustered across the spectrum of interest. So, in some ways, it is not that readers are unadventurous, but the publishers and media gatekeepers hope that the product is watered down enough to appeal to a large target market.

Science fiction & fantasy is something of a niche - rather than popular appeal, it's a market segment that some publishers seek to have strong marketshare in.

Hmm, I agree to a certain extent. I believe when a type of literature is marketed, a target market is in mind, and this target market has a pop cultural level. In fact, I am glad to see that fantasy and certainly science fiction is well cemented in the pop culture through various venues at this point. Publishers attempt to offer a product that may steal the attention of a general population that may not before had considered themselves fantasy fiction fans.

If any particular reader feels that any particular publisher or author isn't delivering what they want, then there's plenty of other choices in fiction and non-fiction to consider.

To deride a genre, though, really says more about personal taste than anything about the genre itself.

Well, my personal taste tends to lean towards genre of fantasy and science fiction, and just because I am unimpressed by a chunk of the trend that mainstream fantasy fiction is churning out, does not make a reader less of a fan of the genre. You see, it isn't a genre issue or even a literature issue. It is a media product issue. I don't think any of us are unfamiliar with the typical complaints fingered at Hollywood, for example, and that has nothing to do with the genre of the films that it produces.
 
What is it about most modern fantasy authors in that they feel the need to write endless epics? Why is it that many feel the need to over complicate their stories?

When you look back to early works of fantasy, they tended to be mainly in short story or single novel form. Even when stories were loosely connected in a series, they still stood on their own and could be read independently of the others. They did not feel the need to overly complicate their stories nor drag them out.

I suspect that Tolkien and the success of LOTR is to blame. Since the success of that has become apparent to publishers, they expect their authors to likewise churn out epics of vast proportions. Afterall, it's a good money spinner isn't it? Get people hooked into a series and see how far you can drag it out. Each book is just a continuation of the story that was begun in the first volume and the whole series has to be read in order for it to make any sense. Robert Jordan's "Wheel of time" series is a classic example of this.

Now I'm not saying that all modern authors are rubbish and I'm sure there are many counter examples to my sweeping generalisation. I have read and enjoyed many modern authors. But I find myself increasingly frustrated by modern works of fantasy with less and less patience for reading long series. Perhaps this has correspondended with my gradual discovery of classic works of fantasy and exposure to different writing styles.

Am I alone in this way of thinking or do others also feel this way?

The Publishers are the ones that want these big steaming cast of thousands epic fantasy series.
 
The Publishers are the ones that want these big steaming cast of thousands epic fantasy series.

Do they, really, though. I'm not sure.

The longer the book is, then the more it costs to print each book (in terms of paper and ink). Logically, a longer book can only be justified by a larger audience to buy the book, since you make lower returns on a longer book once you deduct the printing costs of each book. Once you deduct the printing costs, you should make more money selling a 200 page book to 1,000 people at £5.99 than you would make selling an 800 page book to exactly the same number of people at exactly the same price.

So, the longer book needs a larger audience. More people to buy the book in order to make the same profit.

If that's true, then who's driving the quest to be bigger? The publishers or the audience?
 
Do they, really, though. I'm not sure.

The longer the book is, then the more it costs to print each book (in terms of paper and ink). Logically, a longer book can only be justified by a larger audience to buy the book, since you make lower returns on a longer book once you deduct the printing costs of each book. Once you deduct the printing costs, you should make more money selling a 200 page book to 1,000 people at £5.99 than you would make selling an 800 page book to exactly the same number of people at exactly the same price.

So, the longer book needs a larger audience. More people to buy the book in order to make the same profit.

If that's true, then who's driving the quest to be bigger? The publishers or the audience?

In light of that , It would be the audience that's pressuring for these big book fantasy sagas. I didn't think this one though. :unsure::(
 
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The publishers want what they know they can sell. They would actually make more money publishing shorter books and selling more of them, if that was what readers were buying.

When my first books were published, my publisher happened to be one that was notoriously ... thrifty ... with paper and ink. They squeezed as many words as they could onto each page and advised their writers to be equally thrifty with their prose.

A decade or two later, with a different publisher, and with big books being more and more popular with readers, I noticed that a book of approximately the same number of words might be a hundred pages longer, due to the formatting. Obviously it is more expensive to produce books this way (at least in the paperback, trade paperback, and hardcover editions) so the only possible reason for doing it is because it makes the books look more appealing to readers.

I do know that publishers are less likely than they used to be to slowly build a new author's career over a long period of time. They want more immediate sales and they want those sales to be big. The mid-list is pretty much extinct. Since I was a mid-list author myself, I naturally don't see this as a great development, but people like what they like and buy what they buy. It's not the job of publishers to tell them what they ought to want instead. (Though I am sure that if they thought it would work they'd be doing it. But you can't sell books like you can potato chips or cereal. It never has worked that way.)

You would think that with social media and the attendant chance for word-of-mouth to spread that new authors would have a better chance. But what do people spend most of their time talking about on social media? Their pets, their kids, what they had for breakfast. (And now of course politics and disease.) The fact is, a lot of avid readers don't care to talk about the books they've read or why they like them. That's why all our attempts at a book club section here have ultimately failed. There is initial interest but it quickly flags.

We think of the trend toward bigger books as a problem, but that is just because our own tastes are not necessarily being met. If lots of books are published and lots of readers are happy with what is available what is wrong with that?
 
We think of the trend toward bigger books as a problem, but that is just because our own tastes are not necessarily being met. If lots of books are published and lots of readers are happy with what is available what is wrong with that?

Nothing by itself, but a lot of the long running epic series just drag it out for the sake of the market. Give me a good solid trilogy every time. Not that I haven't read quite a lot of the really long series but by the end I just read to learn what happens - and I've given up on several altogether.

If a long series can sustain my interest, great, but there are other ways of doing it like connected trilogies or an expanded world with standalone sequels, prequels, and side character focused books - beginning, middle, end, then move on.

I rarely hear of people talking about how a super long series ended well, I do hear about how they hate the endings. Maybe that's why people like them though - they get to delay the end and what they're reading is comfortable and familiar.

Perhaps it's also down to the authors living too much in that particular universe as well, they never want it to end after all the work they've put into the world building or characters. Maybe they're afraid they will become irrelevant once it's over.
 
Nothing by itself, but a lot of the long running epic series just drag it out for the sake of the market. Give me a good solid trilogy every time. Not that I haven't read quite a lot of the really long series but by the end I just read to learn what happens - and I've given up on several altogether.

If a long series can sustain my interest, great, but there are other ways of doing it like connected trilogies or an expanded world with standalone sequels, prequels, and side character focused books - beginning, middle, end, then move on.

I rarely hear of people talking about how a super long series ended well, I do hear about how they hate the endings. Maybe that's why people like them though - they get to delay the end and what they're reading is comfortable and familiar.

Perhaps it's also down to the authors living too much in that particular universe as well, they never want it to end after all the work they've put into the world building or characters. Maybe they're afraid they will become irrelevant once it's over.

Robert Jordan could have done better with the Wheel of Time with fewer books.
 
I think gigantic epic fantasy sagas re going be with us for quite some time.
 
Its the Game of Thrones effect, soon to be reinforced by the TV series of WoT.
My agent has told me long is good, epic epic is what the publishers want atm.
And yes, Robert Jordan needed a much firmer editor.
 

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