The White Council

[lyrra sark]

it has never made any sense to me to consider the complex nature of a person's or character's "power" as a simple scalar value, reducible to "who can beat up whom."

 

[Fake Vencar]

Definitely remember reading somewhere that Aragorn was part of the Council. This agrees with devilsgrin's theory a little bit

 

[sarakoth]

To add a tidbit of information to the discussion of Gandalf's power...:
I am sure you're all aware of the fact that Saruman and Gandalf are Maiar. And that Sauron was one, too. And that the Balrog - as unlikely as it may sound - is the same as them. The Balrog - imo - is not a minion of Sauron's. He is a minion of Morgoth like Sauron.
Thus, it seems safe to assume that they're all more on the less the same on the power scale.

And though Gandalf perished during the battle with the Balrog - keep in mind that the Balrog was destroyed, too, which suggest some equality in power, too.

~Sira - who unfortunately has no idea who could have been on the White Council and thus will stop furthering the ninja'ing of this thread.

I thought Gandalf defeated Durin's Bane but died later due to exhaustion. If that's true, Gandalf technically won because he outlasted the opponent.

 

[Majimaune]

He might of died from exhaustion, we don't know. All I know is that isn't the topic of the thread.

 

[Rinion]

Though i am not in anyway saying that Gandalf is weaker than the witch-king, but the witch-king did break gandalf's staff during their minor confrontation in Minas Tirith... and as their staves are the symbols of the power of the itarii one could conclude, that originally a man or not, the Witch King is undoubtedly one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth.

Uhg, that is in the movie. Please. It never happened in the book, and I highly doubt it ever would.

And Gandalf -was- more powerful then the Balrog; first of all, he is masking his true power during the fight, or at least is supposed to be. Second of all, he is 'already wearied' due to the spell he cast prior to the fight and the flight from the orcs. I think that Gandalf at his true and best would be able to slay the Balrog, and maybe escape with his life.

And, it is true enough that the Balrog might not have served Sauron's purpose wholly because of his insane power. However, that was a direct quote from the book and I was putting it there to show just how powerful he was, and therefore how powerful Gandalf was.

Also, reread that passage you put down again. Gandalf was -changed-, he was made better, stronger, possibly wiser. That means he is now much stronger then the Balrog, or it is assumed such.

Though to say that Gandalf was the most powerful being in Arda would possibly an exaggeration. Many of the first eldar are still alive, and their power would be considerable. Tolkein saying so doesn't make it canon, as papa tolkein was occasionally contradictory and often changed the meanings of things in later letters, etc...
For Gandalf the Grey to have fallen to Saruman proves that in the least Saruman the White was his then equal - though clearly more cunning by far.
Sauron without the ring may have been weak, but he would certainly have been more powerful than Gandalf. Gandalf against the Balrog did include a ring as well recall. the word Minion is key also... rarely are minions more powerful than their masters unless they are grossly stupid... and the Balrog being a demon from the earliest days of arda is unlikely to be stupid.

-sigh- The eldar's power is waning. Even Galadriel admits this, and there is no question about it. This is the reason they are moving west. And, if the author says something about his books, I'm pretty sure it's canon. It's like in real-life: many tales to one story, eh?

And, god, this is ticking me off. Sauron's ring was not one end-all, powerful, godly ring that bestowed one with super-awesome powers. Nor is LoTR like Dragonball Z where everyone has a power level. The ring was made for one purpose: to dominate the -will- of all free races. To control the magic rings given to the leaders of those races. Sauron with the ring would be just like Sauron without the ring: he would hide like a wimp in Barad-Dur and wait for the orcs to slaughter the world while using his power over the three rings to corrupt their users.

Sauron, although a Maia, isn't a warrior. This has been hotly debated and I firmly believe that Sauron is just as frail as Gandalf would be. In fact, he lost his true form and can only take up a host as a form, and I'm positive this limits him greatly.

 

[devilsgrin]

Uhg, that is in the movie. Please. It never happened in the book, and I highly doubt it ever would.

And Gandalf -was- more powerful then the Balrog; first of all, he is masking his true power during the fight, or at least is supposed to be. Second of all, he is 'already wearied' due to the spell he cast prior to the fight and the flight from the orcs. I think that Gandalf at his true and best would be able to slay the Balrog, and maybe escape with his life.

And, it is true enough that the Balrog might not have served Sauron's purpose wholly because of his insane power. However, that was a direct quote from the book and I was putting it there to show just how powerful he was, and therefore how powerful Gandalf was.

Also, reread that passage you put down again. Gandalf was -changed-, he was made better, stronger, possibly wiser. That means he is now much stronger then the Balrog, or it is assumed such.



-sigh- The eldar's power is waning. Even Galadriel admits this, and there is no question about it. This is the reason they are moving west. And, if the author says something about his books, I'm pretty sure it's canon. It's like in real-life: many tales to one story, eh?

And, god, this is ticking me off. Sauron's ring was not one end-all, powerful, godly ring that bestowed one with super-awesome powers. Nor is LoTR like Dragonball Z where everyone has a power level. The ring was made for one purpose: to dominate the -will- of all free races. To control the magic rings given to the leaders of those races. Sauron with the ring would be just like Sauron without the ring: he would hide like a wimp in Barad-Dur and wait for the orcs to slaughter the world while using his power over the three rings to corrupt their users.

Sauron, although a Maia, isn't a warrior. This has been hotly debated and I firmly believe that Sauron is just as frail as Gandalf would be. In fact, he lost his true form and can only take up a host as a form, and I'm positive this limits him greatly.

The eldar's power in Middle Earth is waning true, i was howerver referring to the Eldar in other parts of Arda... in 'The West' for instance.
The One Ring was bound up with much of Sauron's power. He sacrificed a large portion of his power to create it, hence losing his form when he was defeated and it was taken by Isildur.
That Gandalf (Olorin) is a maiar is not something i have forgotten, perhaps you have forgotten that the Valar limited the powers of those maiar sent to Middle Earth as the Istarii - primarily so as to avert their use of power to control and confront the Enemy directly.

It is my opinion that following his death in battle with the balrog (with the importance of his tasks, i can hardly see Gandalf willingly limiting himself in a battle with a Balrog), when he was sent back - presumably by the valar, their limitations were removed, strengthening him beyond Saruman, and the balrog also most likely (had there been a re-match). Still, considering his vast powers, Gandalf still never confronts Sauron directly.
Sauron, in my opinion, would have learned a great deal while servant to Morgoth. Nowhere have i read that he was possessing beings whilst stripped of his physical from.

 

[Boaz]

@Pyan If I remember correctly, the White Council was the inclusion of the Istari into the leaders of the Elves. But the remnants of the Noldor, Sindar, and Nandor must have met during the Second Age. Was there a name for this group? An original White Council led by Gil-galad with Galadriel, Celeborn, Cirdan, Elrond, Celebrimbor (and probably a couple of Noldorin captains), Erestor, Glorfindel, and maybe Thranduil seems likely to me.

Was there a name for the group of leaders who formed the Last Alliance? Gil-galad (his captains), Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, Elendil, Isildur, and Anarion....

Do you think there were any adjunct members or at least people who were invited to meetings of White Council? Fangorn, Gwaihir, Durin V, Durin IV, Elladan, Elrohir, Celebrian, Valacar, Hyarmendacil II, Earnil II, Aragorn, or Beorn?

 

[Pyan]

Good question, @Boaz

I think the White Council was a very specific thing to discuss and plan for the threat from Sauron. I'm afraid I can't remember reading anywhere about any other such councils meeting in the same way. There may have been meetings involving allied peoples before, but none with the sheer power and gravitas of the White Council.

Do you think there were any adjunct members or at least people who were invited to meetings of White Council? Fangorn, Gwaihir, Durin V, Durin IV, Elladan, Elrohir, Celebrian, Valacar, Hyarmendacil II, Earnil II, Aragorn, or Beorn?

Um.

• Fangorn, Gwaihir and Beorn would not come, even if invited - they are very much of their own species/peoples, and I think they would take the view that what the Elves and Istari were up to was none of their concern at that point.
• The Dwarves were far too suspicious of possible motives to have their rulers go to a meeting with the Elves.
• The two Elven "children", Eladan and Elrohir would hear from Elrond what was going on.
• Celebrían wouldn't have been there - she sailed to the West in SA 2510.
• Valacar, Hyarmendacil II, Eärnil II and Aragorn were Men, and it's doubtful if the White Council would have thought that they were to be trusted with information shared at Council meetings. The same would apply to Théoden and Thengel.

The White Council was composed of the three Istari (who were Maiar) and the four last, most powerful Elves still living on Middle-earth. I don't think that they'd include any being that wasn't at the same level, so to speak. The Blue Wizards, Alatar and Pallando, would have been included, but they were long gone at this point.
I think the only other being that may have been included was Iarwain Ben-adar, Tom Bombadil, but as Gandalf says in the Council of Elrond at Rivendell, there wouldn't be any real point:

...the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.’
‘But within those bounds nothing seems to dismay him,’ said Erestor. ‘Would he not take the Ring and keep it there, for ever harmless?’
‘No,’ said Gandalf, ‘not willingly. He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian; and that alone is answer enough.’