Thoughts...and LOTS questions! SPOILERS!!!

[cersei]

Just seen Revolutions last night (anyone care to further elaborate their thoughts on title.....as was Reloaded was named accordingly?)....

what do I think?....initially I came out very dissatisfied that all the things we have elaborated on here as such the why of Neo having powers in the "real world", possiblity Neo is a programme and the theory of Zion being another construct is not addressed....but since then have come to realise this is purposeful by the borthers....

as Harry Knowles pointed out (don't agree with a lot he says) as in religion, there is NO need to explain it all... a brave decision as it will surely add to negative reviews of how confusing movie is (trust me, we may seem "savy" to Reloaded but a simple survey of "ordinary" people whom seen it will show how more than half did not get the heck of Architect's conversations..).

Of course, nothing is discounted ie Zion could still be a parallel construct as form of control...which could explain why Neo has his powers is able to see "gold programmes" despite being blind.

I suppose deep down I am so frustrated since I so enjoyed our debates here and thought it would have so much resolved instead of even mroe questions....

Before I pose some questions which I trust some of you will help covey your thoughts, I will say the obvious (to me) : overall stunning effects and more sustained tension and a fight to end all fights is wihout a doubt superior to Reloaded for me. But then this had never been why i love the Matrix...

questions then:

"Neo touched the source" hence his coma. this was already said in Enter the Matrix (ETM) game....(a side point, SO much is in ETM they definately should consider including the cut scenes in some future DVD...such as Train master). when exactly did Neo touch the source? proximity of Architect door? putting hand in Trinity?

Why is Neo in that between place of Machine world and Matrix...what does this place suggest?

The importance of Sati (think that's her name)? This "very important child" is mentioned in ETM. why is she so important? my theory is because she is first programme is be created without a purpose ie "human like " as Smith points out (cynical but "true" that humans unlike machines/programmes do NOT have a purpose in life...). she is key to a future co-existence between machines and man? as side note, if Merovingian hates Oracle so much, why does he deliver Sati to her then? part of deal or simple Trainmaster drops Sati in Matrix and she is picked up by Seraph?

Smith's new found powers.....from absorbing Oracle? hence he evil bwah-ha-ha laugh on realising?

Final fight with Smith...has he taken over ENTIRE world? even those programmes like Merovingian ( I doubt it since if he seems to have way to avoid Reloads, he probably can avoid Smith). or is just simply one large city Smith's taken over?

After Smith is defeated, everyone is restored? ie humans absorbed? or only Sati, Oracle and Seraph? is world as empty as suggested or simply they only show us those 3 (plus Architect visiting) or is humans being "reloaded" back into world gradually?

Thanks to all your thoughts in advance....look forward to hearing them

 

[Spudnik]

ur back!

and ur front!

ur both here!

ahem, well, hi, and er, i really dont want to remotely try at explaining anything just now. im layzee/

 

[cersei]

and i miss u too spud yes cersei lives, ressurected by Matrix

 

[pkgrl]

Originally posted by cersei
Just seen Revolutions last night (anyone care to further elaborate their thoughts on title.....as was Reloaded was named accordingly?)....

Revolutions is a parallel to Revelations. It's the last chapter... the end... at least to this story. It also refers to Smith's revot against all that he knows he's supposed to do. Now that we know that he's Neo's opposite, and we know that he's the result of the matrix trying to balance out Neo's appearance, we understand where his "compulsion" to stay in the matrix came from. Revolutions also refers to the battle Zion is waging in trying to stay alive as well as the mini battle between Locke and Morpheus, ie the battle between reason and faith.

what do I think?....initially I came out very dissatisfied that all the things we have elaborated on here as such the why of Neo having powers in the "real world", possiblity Neo is a programme and the theory of Zion being another construct is not addressed....but since then have come to realise this is purposeful by the borthers....

You're right that not everything has to be explained. Some of it we have to take on blind faith. And I agree that this was intentional by the Brothers. But I think they explained more than we seem to be getting. When people say things like Neo "touched the Souce," I don't think they mean literally. But in the same way that Neo now sees the world without time, he has touched the Source. It's more metaphysical than anything else. It's something that fundimentally changed him inside. That's how he was able to stop the squiddies in Reloaded and how he as able to see machines as light in Revolutions.

And Neo isn't a program the way the Merovingian is one. But rather, in a way, in the machine's "eyes", we're all programs. We live in our minds. It's one of the points the Brothers were trying to make. Where do humans live? In the world? Or in their perceptions of the world? What's real in our minds is real. Period. The Brothers were just using the imagry of two seperate worlds (a physical one and a mental one) to show us how seperate our perceptions and "reality" might be. We're not supposed to get answers, but keep asking questions. That's why I LOVE this series, this film (since the Brothers call it one film in three parts). It encourages people to keep thinking and to keep questioning. Socrates would have loved it, too.

a side point, SO much is in ETM they definately should consider including the cut scenes in some future DVD...such as Train master).

Absolutely!

Why is Neo in that between place of Machine world and Matrix...what does this place suggest?

Well... purgatory? Sounds like purgatory to me. He's stuck between where he was and where he wants to go... or between where he was and where he needs to be? If the Train Man is like Charon, ferrying people to the underworld (or afterlife), then the place where the exile programs live would be that afterlife. Waiting for the Train Man would be sitting in limbo (which was pointed out here is the anagram of Mobil, which is the name of the station) or waiting in purgatory.

The importance of Sati (think that's her name)? This "very important child" is mentioned in ETM. why is she so important? my theory is because she is first programme is be created without a purpose ie "human like " as Smith points out (cynical but "true" that humans unlike machines/programmes do NOT have a purpose in life...). she is key to a future co-existence between machines and man? as side note, if Merovingian hates Oracle so much, why does he deliver Sati to her then? part of deal or simple Trainmaster drops Sati in Matrix and she is picked up by Seraph?

I think you're right about her. I, too, thought she was adding beauty to the sunrise, not causing the sun to rise. And I think she's the first program that will truely bridge the gap between human and machine. I think she's the first of a new generation of program that will be able to choose it's own purpose, like humans.

And on your side note, I don't think Merv hates the Oracle at all, but she has something he doesn't... information about the future. It's the one componant of his information brokerage that he cannot possess, which makes him want it all the more. I don't think he gave a rat's behind where Sati went. He got what he wanted out of the deal, so he had to come through on his end. If he didn't, then no other programs would ever trust him with thier information ever again. He doesn't have to like the deal, he just has to honor it.

Smith's new found powers.....from absorbing Oracle? hence he evil bwah-ha-ha laugh on realising?

No, I don't think Smith can fly because he absorbed the Oracle. I think he's growing. I think he developed the ability to fly and fight more like Neo, because the matrix, in trying to regain balance, let him "aquire" those abilities in order to match Neo. The Oracle was an obviously different overwrite for Smith because there was a gale released in her kitchen while it was occurring. The evil laugh was the result of Smith's awareness that he could now see the future. He could see that he would win. (Or so he thought.)

Final fight with Smith...has he taken over ENTIRE world? even those programmes like Merovingian ( I doubt it since if he seems to have way to avoid Reloads, he probably can avoid Smith). or is just simply one large city Smith's taken over?

I think we're supposed to think that Smith, and all his copies, have repopulated the matrix in it's entirety (with the exception of those under Merv's protection in the program underworld -- note the double meaning of that word, esp where the Merovingian is concerned), threatening the machines more directly.

After Smith is defeated, everyone is restored? ie humans absorbed? or only Sati, Oracle and Seraph? is world as empty as suggested or simply they only show us those 3 (plus Architect visiting) or is humans being "reloaded" back into world gradually?

Not sure about this one. I didn't even think about it. I assumed that everyone was restored. I don't think the machines would survive very long if all the humans had been 'damaged' because of that. I think we're only shown Sati and the other three because of the "time" (dawn). The humans are under control, so most of them could be "programmed" to think they'd had some bad dream, or they'd been drunk that night, or something else, but I think they're still alive. The strangeness of that night might weigh on some of them more heavily and cause an upsurge in "freeings" from the matrix, though. Wouldn't you start to doubt your own reality if you found you'd had the same bad dream on the same night as your boss?

Good to have you back, cersei!

 

[skyron]

I just got back from seeing Revolutions so i havn't really had a chance to wrap my brian arownd it yet but i'd thought id batather on about the questions Cercei raised. Sorry PKgirl. i havnt read your post above yet so if i repeat something you said, my apologies.
andyway... About Neo's powers outside the matrix and his being lost inside at the station; perhaps that after his visit to the source in Reloaded he, like Smith replicated his "program" (unknowingly) inside the matrix and as such also gaind a "wireless connection" to the matrix and the machine world. perhaps all the hardware in his head to accomodate the neural connection is also sensitive to the electro magnetinc noise that the Machine city most likely emits. (the Sentinals seem to be in contact with Machine city so why not Neo..or anyone with implants who realizes it) therfore, he found he could tap into and control Matrix systems by remote control (and with out the amplification that is provided by the connections one gets on board a ship) and cause things to malfunction and self destruct. Also this would account for his "vision" he can see the fog of electomagnetic noise via his implants, like radar. Of course it does provide fodder to those who would argue that Zion is another level of the Matrix. who can say.

As for the Trainman, having no experience with the matrix video game, i cant comment too authoratativly, but it seems to me that if he is part of what i have been calling the "back door" world where the Merovingian holds court, he is not too powerful and can only do so much. he deliverd Sati, the little girl, to the backdoor world where anythng can happen. I don't think the Merovingian has all that much power either so he can be easily thwarted by superior programs like Seraph who scooped Sati up. (is not Seraph an angel? and guardian angel if you will?) and the Oracle. and Smith for that matter.

The Oracle is the mother of the Matrix. i think we can let that question rest now...Smith called her mom...
I assume as did Cersei that Smith had managed to spread and assimilate all "coppertops" in the matrix and, ironicly become a virus himself.
when Neo allowed himslef to be assimilated by Smith he became as powerful as Smith except that he retained his human choice. and chose to sacrifice himself to destroy the Smith virus. (i thought the image of Neo being dragged off in a Christ like pose was a bit heavy handed but i suppose it had to be...but it occures to me that we see the machine taking him away in reality and then in the "golden light" as Neo would see it... Is neo still alive in some way? Is he now in charge of the Matrix?

And as for Sati. She is definatly a new kind of program. spawned by the 'marrage" or two artificialy intelligent applications. perhaps Neo had a special influence on the father after seeing him in the Merivingians restaurant in reloaded. (a christ-like, miraculous influence?) or even as they met in the train station, an influence that enabled Sati to be a true sentient, artificial inteligence. some scrap of Neo's humanity, his goodness, was going "viral" in the matrix ( a new religion for the machines?) just like Smiths evil... (ballanced equasion)

oh i suppose i'll have to make some seprate postes about those topics but that's enough for now. my brain hurts

 

[cersei]

thanks for all the thoughts

thanks folks. always good to hear yr reasonings pkgrl and yes its good to be back

i will be keeping a close eye on matrix online game which is being supervised by the brothers and as such will point to where the Matrix (based here only as opposed to real world) is heading...there is some form of conflict...but between whom? we'll have to wait till 2004 for that

as for title, I have thought about it more and I think it does not mean the apparent "revolution" by humans/Zion as such but rather that like reincarnation/karma the whole thing ends but starting again ie revolving again. note the motif of "everything that has a begining has an end" is very relevant to this third film and you can even get this fancy Matrix Ring with those words inscriped...the key point being the circular manner it is written in. its like the unspoken subtext is "everything that has an end has a beginning" as well.... check out this link (wish I could afford it ) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3360636945&category=197

which brings me to another question...was that a new (7th) reload that occurs at the end (after all the One has now returned to the Source as well) or simply machines correcting damage Smith has done but essentially same 6th version? and what does that imply for Zion being MIM theory (something I still believe strongly in.....I think Smith knows Zion is a MIM hence his asking Neo why does he bother fighting on for as he feels Neo knows the truth too.....but in the end as pkgrl pointed out it did not matter to Neo as Zion real or not is REAL to him....)

 

[pkgrl]

Yeah, I thought about that, too while I was watching the film. The revolutions being things that revolve, I mean. See? This is why I need to take notes while I watch these films. :blush: I forget stuff that I see while watching the film that I want to discuss later. I might see it again tomorrow, so I'll have notes then.

Keep us updated on that online game, too. I don't have the time to dedicate to playing an online game, and having never done it before, don't think The Matrix is a good one to start on. :alienooh:

I'm not sure if that's supposed to be the beginning of a 7th version, but I tend to think that it was. Maybe that's why the only "people" we see at the end are programs; The Architect and all his maintainance programs are re-booting the humans. The Oracle and other programs (Seraph, Merv, etc) have survived other re-boots, so we may have just seen the beginning of the 7th.

But maybe this re-boot doesn't involve rebuilding Zion. After all, the war ended. (I'm of the opinion that the real world is in fact an actual, physical world seperate from the matrix.) The humans don't have any hover ships left anyway... it'll take them a while to rebuild and the machines will have the new matrix all defined and steady by the time the free humans can come looking for newbies... if they decide to continue to do that. After all, the Oracle implied that some "copper tops" will still become aware and want out, so they'd have to go somewhere. She probably still plans on guiding the free humans the way she has been.

Besides, a new One may rise again. His purpose will just be different than Neo's was.

skyron: I like your idea that Neo can now feel or contact the machine city (and machines in general for that matter) simply because he has some of their hardware hard-wired into his brain. Makes sense that he'd learn how to use that ability once he was aware of it. And did you read my earlier reply yet? I think we're on the same page about much of the film.

 

[cersei]

Reload or Refresh?

hmm...inititially I thought at the end the Matrix was reloaded into its 7th reincarnation...but reading other opinions, it is possible it was merely a refresh ie build all the damage done but not an actual reload. this could also explain the cat shown to reflect on deja vu in first movie when things altered in Matrix. as pointed out by some, the voluntary entry of the One into the Source is now lost and merely sticking Neo's body/mind into it is not enough....

thoughts?

 

[skyron]

The Matrix: Renovations

Not only does the cat change but the the flipping over of little cubes of sidewalk and walls changes too. Sati awakens into a new setting and meets the Oracle not in the backdoor world but in the Matrix it's self. it does seem to show that the matrix has been "renovated" in a new way. Sati alters a sunrise for Neo and askes if he will return. it seems to me she is functioning with creativity, with choise. something the machines never had before. Something they finaly got from Neo when he turned the tables on Smith's assimilation of him. Neo, as it turns out, is the saviour of the machine world. he is was the masiah of the Machines...he battled off Smith who had spread "evil" through the Matrix and gave them the one thing they wanted, choise.

In return, it would seem, the machines made a deal with Neo to allow all who wanted to leave the matrix to do so. And with Neo in charge or at least his influence felt, many coppertops will be liberated into the care of the spaired Zion as kooky coloured sunrises are just a taste of what will be happening in a new matrix that it's human participants will question.

it's like a splinter in your mind.

 

[Dave]

Re: Matrix: Revolutions

Guess what I saw today. I was a little disappointed, not only did it not answer all the questions, but I thought that 'Reloaded' was a better film. Anyway...

Originally posted by pkgrl
Revolutions is a parallel to Revelations. It's the last chapter... the end... at least to this story.........

And Neo isn't a program the way the Merovingian is one. But rather, in a way, in the machine's "eyes", we're all programs.

They've been making that point throughout the whole series, but especially in this one with the references to love, insanity, etc all being conditioned/programmed responses.

Originally posted by pkgrl
Waiting for the Train Man would be sitting in limbo (which was pointed out here is the anagram of Mobil, which is the name of the station) or waiting in purgatory.

Thanks for that, I love those word games they play and didn't spot that.

Originally posted by pkgrl
No, I don't think Smith can fly because he absorbed the Oracle. I think he's growing. I think he developed the ability to fly and fight more like Neo, because the Matrix, in trying to regain balance, let him "aquire" those abilities in order to match Neo.

I agree with that, that's what I assumed.

Originally posted by skyron
Not only does the cat change but the the flipping over of little cubes of sidewalk and walls changes too. Sati awakens into a new setting and meets the Oracle not in the backdoor world but in the Matrix it's self. It does seem to show that the matrix has been "renovated" in a new way. Sati alters a sunrise for Neo and askes if he will return. it seems to me she is functioning with creativity, with choise. something the machines never had before.

I agree with this. It was definitely all about choice. In the end Neo had no reason to carry on the battle other than "I choose to!" and this fits in with the Oracle's original conversation with him back in the original 'Matrix'.

The 'free' humans will not go back to Zion, but the Earth's sky is still destroyed, so I don't know where they will live. I wondered about the humans still in the Matrix. The machines still need them for power, the architect said any who wanted could go free, and we know that many people would not leave, even if they knew the truth, but is there not some moral dilemma here for the 'free' humans. Can the machines be allowed to carry on 'milking' humans?

The Oracle pointed out that her sign above the door had changed. I think it now said "Tempus fugit" -- Time Flies. Is that right? And what did that mean? Neo seemed to fully understand the meaning.

 

[skyron]

hummm i think the sign still said something like Sempre verita or veritas or the like that ...as in "be true to yourself" anyway it had not changed (i don't think) I think the Oracle just reminded Neo of what it said. But i could be wrong... (to be honest i didnt quite catch it). If anyone can help us out on that one, that would be swell.
Personaly i see no problem with Zion continuing to be a livable place. its a pretty big operation and it was only the dock that was trashed. sure they have some fixing up to do but they seem do have considerable industrial capacity. I think the Zionites will be back to freeing ppl in no time with out any hindrence from the machines. After all...Neo's "essence" is now spreading through the matrix and is in effect controlling it. I believe that peace will prevail and as repugnant as it may be to the free humans that there are millions of coppertops powering the matrix, lets face it, they could never free them all, at least not now. so in the mean time, humanity still "lives"

Oh and as far as the Smith's flying thing goes... I think it had been discussed after Reloaded that Smith gaind he ability to alter his own program and start behaving with autonomy after his first defeat by Neo (at the end of the first film) Smith says as much in the playground scene in Reloaded. So that he learnd to fly is simply a result of his constant interaction with Neo who keeps leaving bits of his "code" in Smith.

but what do i know

 

[skyron]

ok a quick search found what the sign says...
Temet Nosce Know Thyself.

Now is that what the sign reads in Revolutions?

 

[pkgrl]

Yeah, the sign in her kitchen was the same in Revolutions. That's how Neo knew that it was he who had decided that he wasn't ready to know "everything."

Dave: Why can't newly freed humans go to Zion? It isn't destroyed, and if the mim theory is bunk, like I think, then what's wrong with Zion? As far as we're shown (in the film) Zion is fine, as are the humans living there.

And I don't think that it's Neo's influence, necessarily, but that of humanity as a whole that caused the creation of a program with the ability or freedom to choose her own purpose. Sati's creation had nothing to do with Neo (that we could see), but she does represent a kind of cross-road where purpose and choice meet in the machine world.

Remember that this is a film (one, looooong film) after all and color means a great deal. The matrix is green. The filmmakers have stated as much. The "real" world, ie, the human world is in shades of blue. Now, what combines with blue to make green? Yellow. Yellow is the color Neo saw in the machine world. The matrix is where machine and human have to mix in order to thrive on the scorched earth, so Sati is the first program, ie, the first inhabitant of the "machine world" to have "human traits" like choice. So she is the first of a new generation... a melding of both worlds. Something that hasn't happened in the previous five versions of the matrix. This may just be the end... or the beginning. For a new life on earth.

 

[skyron]

Gee whiz PK, you sure catch on to things!
Sati has on a yellow dress too doesn't she. Now, while I agree that the Machines have begun to show signs of burgeoning humanity, i wonder... if they didn't get it from Neo, then from where did they get it? Since reloaded, I have contended that the concept of "the One" was something the machines came up with as a way of futhering their own evolution. It was Neo's influence that made Smith into what he became. And Sati's Father seemed to recognize that Neo was someone rather special and they had remebered eachother from the restaurant... Persephone's kiss.... The keymakers death... Sparring with Seraph... Beating up Smith untill he actualy bleeds blood. Did all those interactions with programs have influence on the machine world? ... I feel that Neo's very presence in the matrix is what started the change, (i.e. Sati), in the programs. A virus/religion. He is an obvious mesianic figure for both humans and machines. He bridges the gap between irrational choise and clear purpose. He balances the equasion. Begining and end. Alpha and Omega.

And just in terms of good story telling, it's more satisfying to have Neo alone be the agent of the machines evolution rather than just something that happens coincidentaly.

it's like a splinter in your mind

 

[Dave]

Must have been wrong about the sign then, that's because I've only seen it the once.

The free humans could still go to Zion, but I had seen Zion as a place where they were hiding from the machines, the last vestiges of humanity holding out with little food or water. I assumed that given a choice they would want to return to the surface.

I also assumed that the Earth would have healed itself after several revolutions of the Matrix, but this film clearly showed that was not so.