Biggest military victory?

I went back and reread my post. Boy, I sound like a self-proclaimed expert on the subject. Sorry. I'm not an expert. I just tend to pontificate and presume to think every thought in my head is pure genius.

Those were just my thoughts. A real expert could point out the real battles of historical significance... and point out the small tactics (or trivia) that decided the course of history.
 
Alesia. Caesar not only survived, he finally crushed all unified Gallic resistance and freed him to look towards Rome
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Very true. But it was the manner of his victory over that made it so impressive. He built what can only be descibed as a tactical doughnut - an inner wall to surround and attack Alesia from and an outer wall to repell the forces trying to relieve the siege. Very clever:)
 
I've enjoyed reading the posts on this thread but 2 quick observations just
to be a bit different:

1. Any "military" conflict will normally result in loss of life so how is this a Victory? more like a loss to humanity I woud've thought....:(

2. You can't really define the biggest or most of something when you think about it because in the future a bigger or more significant battle may yet take place. Obviously we're looking here at the biggest so far just like I say Erikson is my No .1 fantasy author so far..

Ok back to posting all, I just thought I'd be a little left of centre for a moment and Boaz I thought you're list was a good one!!!....:D :D
 
Thanks, Gollum. I failed to mention the battle of the Teutoburg forest, iirc. I think this was when Tiberius was emperor... the Germans annihilated two entire legions (or something to that effect) and the Romans decided that the frontier ended there.

You know I really wonder about the battles, the cultures, and the peoples that are forgotten in antiquity or that took place far from recorded Western history. This is one of the themes of books like LOTR, Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fate of Human Societies, and Eternity in their Hearts, and movies such as Dances with Wolves, The Emerald Forest, and The Scorpion King.

The battle or battles of Narmer (his Egyptian name, while Menes is his Hellenized name, iirc) to unify upper and lower Egypt.

What struggles took place that launched the Polynesians out into the Pacific Ocean?

It would be fascinating to have an in depth history of the clash between the San and Banu peoples in African history.

If the Basque people's language is different from all others... where did they come from? Were they pushed to the edge of the sea by the Spanish, the Romans, the Visigoths, the Moors? Or did they land there and carve out a home?

Did the Aborigines of Australia fight each other before the Europeans arrived?

What battles are being fought today deep in the jungles of the Amazon and New Guinea?

Do you all remember the conversation that Aragorn and Eowyn when she begs him leave to join his warband on the Paths of the Dead? It goes something like this...

Aragorn: Your place is here with your people. You are in charge and you cannot shirk your duty. Only your uncle can allow you to go.
Eowyn: But, I've trained with sword and shield... and you know you'll need every able body you can get to help.
Aragorn: Look, we are going off to die.
Eowyn: I'm not afraid.
Aragorn: If we die, you'll still have the chance to fight... defending your homes in the last defence.
Eowyn: All you are saying is that women should cook and then die brutal deaths when you no longer need us!
Argorn: Even if no one is left to sing of your last fight, it not be any less heroic.

My apologies to Prof. Tolkien for that paraphrase.

There are so many unrecorded struggles and heroes that we will never know about, but that does not make them less heroic, just unknown.
 
What struggles took place that launched the Polynesians out into the Pacific Ocean?
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That's an extremely interesting question. Polinesians were the bravest seamen in human history. To prove this point, it's enough to look at the map: from New Zealand to Easter Island and up to Hawaii all over Pacifics. And that done in frail catamarans.;)

If the Basque people's language is different from all others... where did they come from? Were they pushed to the edge of the sea by the Spanish, the Romans, the Visigoths, the Moors? Or did they land there and carve out a home?
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Before Aryan tribes came to Europe it was populated by Iberians. So Basque nation may be one of few shards of protoaryan Europeans. BTW, in 70s, the phylologists from Tbilisi (Georgia) and their colleagues from Basconia found that many words in Georgian and Basquian might have the same origin, and the grammar also had common features (but that was not enought to make them fall into the same linguistic group).
 
GOLLUM said:
I've enjoyed reading the posts on this thread but 2 quick observations just
to be a bit different:

1. Any "military" conflict will normally result in loss of life so how is this a Victory? more like a loss to humanity I woud've thought....:(

2. You can't really define the biggest or most of something when you think about it because in the future a bigger or more significant battle may yet take place. Obviously we're looking here at the biggest so far just like I say Erikson is my No .1 fantasy author so far..
Click to expand...

Conflict usually requires an aggressor (which can depend upon viewpoint) so the diminished threat of that aggressor can often be a source of celebration - and the act of neutralising aggression can have far-reaching historical consequences.

I don't think anybody here is celebrating the loss of life, as much as simply recognising those moments in history of significance and impact.

Boaz said:
Thanks, Gollum. I failed to mention the battle of the Teutoburg forest, iirc. I think this was when Tiberius was emperor... the Germans annihilated two entire legions (or something to that effect) and the Romans decided that the frontier ended there.
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Was under Augustus - I think it's Tacitus describes Augustus tramping about the halls of Rome yelling "Varus! Give me back my legions!"
 
And the result of that unfortunate battle was that Rome afterwards ceased all serious attempts to occupy Germany to the east of the Rhine (the last attempt one was undertaken during Marcus Aurelius' reign - so called Marcoman war but it was not accomplished properly because of the Emperor's death) and thus that was the beginning of its fall. That was propbably the first time in history Romans violate the rule of their own - never forgive those who defeated them and never to negociate with them. Augustus had then all means to bring that war against Arminius to its logical end but he didn't want to...
 
I said:
Conflict usually requires an aggressor (which can depend upon viewpoint) so the diminished threat of that aggressor can often be a source of celebration - and the act of neutralising aggression can have far-reaching historical consequences.

I don't think anybody here is celebrating the loss of life, as much as simply recognising those moments in history of significance and impact.
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Point taken Brian, I was just trying to take a certain point of view and see what reaction I would get actually.... :D

Slightly mischevous perhaps but I liked the way you defended your POV... :)

I'll see if I can come up with any significant history-turnning battles not mentioned yet.
 
Nah, it's a decent point to make - it's much easier to grapple with the abstracts of history than the human effect. Possibly why history appears much more interested in exploring the everyday details of historical life these days, than simply repeating the politics.
 
HMMM.. that's an interesting point you make. You know for a humble tea boy you're certainly full of surpirses... ;)
 
I was perusing this thread and I came across Stalker's comments on Operation Bagration... I know Brian's original post desired discussion to revolve around ancient times, but I think this is very interesting.
Stalker said:
1. Byelorussian assault operation (Bagration) planned by Konstantin Rokossovsky (june, 1944). The result of operation. The defending army (Wehrmacht) during summer battles lost (KIA, wounded and POWs) over 900,000 men. The attacking army (Red Army) for the same period lost about 100,000 men. Group of armies "Center" was simply annihilated, Group of Armies "North" found itself "locked" in Baltic peninsula. Isn't that the gratest victory ever. Even in 1941 the victorious Wehrmach blowing army after army in the East Front, having POWs whose numbers were hundreds thousands (!!!) was anable to achieve such a score!
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Just last week, a friend of mine came back from a tour in Afghanistan. As we were talking culture and history, he mentioned Operation Bagration. Since I was unfamiliar with it, I had to look it up.

Stakler is right, the numbers are mind boggling. During a two month offensive, the Russians finally successfully employed maskirovka, mobility, and manpower to give the Germans their worst defeat.

But here's the kicker... the Wehrmacht did not crumble and surrender. The Russians still had to earn every mile on the way to Berlin. Could any other army have survived a defeat that catastrophic? Back in 1917, the Russians themselves mutinied rather than continue a bad war. I'm shocked the Wehrmacht never mutinied.

It is reminiscent of Cannae. But do we remember that Cannae (Summer 216 BC) happened after Trebia (December 218 BC) and Lake Trasimene (Summer 217 BC)? At Trebia, Hannibal inflicted over 20,000 casualties on a Roman army of 40,000. And at Lake Trasimene, the Romans lost over 75% of their 40,000 strong army. In both battles, the Carthaginian's losses were few. How did the Romans carry on? Throughout history the conventional wisdom is to sue for peace after military disasters.

Once again, I'll state that I'm not trained in history nor military strategy... I'm just an ethusiast.
 
At that stage the Romans were pathologically patriotic. In the end, Hannibal just ended up teaching them how strategy and tactics work, but almost any other nation would've surrendered after Cannae, or at least sued for peace.

How about the Battles of Arausio or Tigranocerta?

The former was the last major defeat the Cimbri tribe inflicted upon the Romans (it's the Romans' own fault. The Cimbri accidentally wandered into Roman territory, asked to settle, agreed to leave and were then attacked by a Roman army which they obliterated. Arausio happened some time later). Two Roman leaders utterly failed to co-operate and they suffered losses comparable with Cannae.

At Tigranocerta the numbers are unclear, but the Romans were probably outnumbered 2 or 3 to 1 (maybe more) and, naturally, attacked. Anything from 10 to 100,000 of the enemy (King Tigranes' various forces) were slaughtered.

However, I did just add the two above for the sake of variety and novelty. If we're confining our thoughts to just the battlefield alone, I'd have to go with Cannae. Considering a wider picture, then perhaps Manzikert, which seemed to mark the inexorable decline of Byzantium, ranks higher.
 
thad, Sometimes we tend to look at the numbers involved and say, "That's the biggest", and we forget that the political fallout may be the most important factor. The examples I noted earlier, Trebia and Trasimene, put Qunitus Fabius Maximus Verrucosus in charge as Consul, but after the Romans tired of his strategy, they sent out their army to die at Cannae. The disaster at Cannae vaulted Fabius back to the fore, this time as dictator.

And it is for the political fallout that Aurasio was so important. The costly Roman defeat propelled Gaius Marius back to the Consulship. Marius had already begun his reformation of the army, but his words carried more weight after Aurasio. And without Marius, we might not have had Sulla. Without Sulla, we might not have had Caesar. Each man assumed more and more power. Each man seemed to do what was needed at the moment. The army gave each man more personal loyalty than it gave to the state. Each man ended up marching on Rome.

Aurasio was a victory for the Cimbri and Teutones, but Rome was the nation changed from the battle. Thanks for the reminder, thad.
 
My choice would be be Scipio's destruction of the Carthaginian army while they were asleep outside Carthage - set fire to their sleeping mats and destroyed their Army once and for all, and basically ended the Carthaginian Empire

Oh, and what about Austerlitz with Boney at his best, or on the same day (I think), Nelson at Trafalgar?
 
Didn't Sulla rather act against the trend of the times by resigning as dictator after he'd rejigged the constitution to give tribunes more power (which had steadily been eroded), in a bid to make the republic stronger? I could be entirely wrong (despite it being a well-documented period I've not read much about it).

Hmm. I thought Quintus Fabius Maximus was dictator between Trasimene and Cannae?

On Marius, I read an interesting book entitled The Crisis of Rome: The Jugurthine and Northern Wars and the Rise of Marius, which is a bit of a mouthful. Enjoyed reading it though, especially as late republic is an era of which I know little. My review's here:
http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/review-crisis-of-rome-jugurthine-and.html
 
Modern, Finland holding off the Soviet Union.

In the past, Agincourt has to be up there. A rag-tag of English soldiers beats the elite of the French. The nglish estimated losses of 100 or so with the French losing over 4000. That's just about as comprehensive as it gets.

Less well known is the British victory in Portugal/Spain. The Brits somehow managed (in secret) to construct an inpenetrable line between Portugal and Spain called the Lines of Torres Vadres. Eventually this fantastic achievement brought about the downfall of one of the greatest generals of all time.
 
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