6.09: Allegiance

CynVision

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Originally posted by webmouse
As I said in my earlier post, even if written out, it would have helped if someone on SG1 had missed him, had expressed a desire for his assistance and bemoaned his absence.
They just don't do this. People said the exact same thing about Nightwalkers and Jack.

While thinking about other episodes: for Nemesis there was too much going on to have them fret about Daniel being stuck on Earth. What's another example?
 

webmouse

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Jack and Daniel are well established characters and so the writers might have felt there was no need to keep them in the audience's mind in those eps where they were written out because of personal lives and health considerations. Further, Daniel's appearance in "Double Jeopardy" was limited because Michael Shanks was directing. All valid reasons to remove a character and yes, the team would just go merrily along without. We the audience miss the character without having to be asked to because those characters are well established and their valued assured.

But Jonas is a new character and of dubious value to many. It is more important, therefore, to give him some extra mention, to keep him in the audience's mind even when Corin Nemec is not available. It is a little thing, perhaps no more than a single line, that would help us sense JQ's place on the team.

The quote in my previous post from Jobeth succinctly summed up the problem. So far we haven't seen Jonas do much and therefore can rightfully ask, what is he there for? Does SG1 need a 4th team member? Does it have to be the same person on every mission? (same questions Jack was asking in "Redemption")

Each member of the team provides something: Jack is the leader, Sam the brains, T'ealc the warrior, and Daniel the conscience. Now we have Jonas the grinning, note-taking, eater of fruit. Not much depth there. I WANT to like him, but not without purpose or cause. The writers missed another opportunity at the expense of a few words to add value to Jonas.
 

skydiver

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they're valid points webmouse. I've also heard agruements for the other side, people were down right giddy that jonas was only in one scene. <G>

And there is the 'i'm sick of jonas saving the day all the time' arguement. (not dissing anyone, just a general summing up of what various folks have said.

I for one did enjoy the fact that we actually had an eps that didn't have a 'daniel' moment (a mention of him somewhere in the dialogue)

They do have a very fine line to tread. A limited number of eps to introduce jonas, while not putting him in so much that folks are crying 'enough...i'm sick of him already'

I think there is also the fact, Jonas will only be in 22 eps at the most (44 if season 7 pans out)...he's never going to have the time for character development that the others have had...short of making it the jonas quinn show. And that wouldn't be fair to the others.
 

webmouse

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The thing that confuses me is the lack of balance. The writers handicapped Jonas from the get-go in "Meridian." Then the stories range from him being nowhere (not in "Revelations"), then stuck somewhere on the base for 3 mos before "Redemption" where he did great things in small ways, to doing everything in "Descent" and "Frozen."

He had some good moments in "Nightwalkers," face-time but not much contribution to "Abyss" and "Shadowplay," a few tantalizing bits in "The Other Guys" and then he vanishes (for good reasons, but bad timing) in "Allegiance."

Knowing that they have a limited amount of eps to have the character do whatever it is he's going to do, knowing that he's starting out with handicaps both within the SGC and with many of the audience, knowing that we don't want "The Adventures of Jonas Quinn" but that we still need to see something substantial from him in order to give him a chance, the writers and producers seem to be unable to make up their minds what they want to do with this character.

It was clear in the final treatment of Daniel why MS left the show. The storylines had little place for him and he might well move on. I only hope that Corin Nemec doesn't lose heart ( or his mind) over the lack of direction.
 

CynVision

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Originally posted by webmouse
He had some good moments in "Nightwalkers," face-time but not much contribution to "Abyss" and "Shadowplay," a few tantalizing bits in "The Other Guys" and then he vanishes (for good reasons, but bad timing) in "Allegiance."

Knowing that they have a limited amount of eps to have the character do whatever it is he's going to do, knowing that he's starting out with handicaps both within the SGC and with many of the audience, knowing that we don't want "The Adventures of Jonas Quinn" but
But we were completely happy with the adventures of the other four for five whole years? From the comments I've been reading about Jonas, their not plopping Jonas fimrly in the team was the worse of the choices. If Jonas was, we wouldn't be complaining so much. It's what I've been saying and saying, that after five years of the fab four the writers painted themselves into a position they can't get out of. Personally I was floored when the Tok'ra from Alliegance showed up in the Cure previews. I was curious about the ep just from that. Maybe it's purely that Jonas seems to have very little mystery to him? We know too much about him.
 

webmouse

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It occured to me today that the biggest mistake in Jonas' intro to the show was with "Meridian." The focus needed to be on Daniel and it was, so there was no room for Jonas. He was left under a dark cloud from which he may now never escape entirely.

Had "Meridian" been solely about Daniel, the program following it should have been about Jonas and his decision to finally do the right thing. We should have been shown Jonas struggling with the decision, arguing with his superiors, watching the other scientists die and knowing that the same was happening to Daniel who was a hero and not a saboteur. As it is we never get to see him make the ethical leap from his Colonan POV to the grander view of the SGC. We should have been shown the "eureka" moment when he makes his decision and we should have felt that he was a good person for having made it.

Then when confronted with the SGC's suspicions and hostility, we'd have felt sorry for Jonas, could have empathized with him for the situation in which he finds himself. We would be able to see the growth and change in the character. He would have had a greater value to us.

But the writers have written what they have written and much of the season is already in the can. They have done a big thing badly and are just hoping that the audience will faithfully accept whatever they dish out. Unlike the team that was allowed to form from the film through COTG and then for five seasons, this new SG1 team will only have one season and Jonas only a few eps to make his presence known.

And yes, holding him back is the worst decision. Better to see more of him, so he can catch up with the others in terms of audience attachment, than have less of him and wonder why they bothered to create him in the first place.
 

skydiver

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devoting two eps to daniel's departure then jonas' arrival would have been nice. But, unfortunately, i dont' think they had the luxury. It's always been my impression that they didnt' have much warning on MS' departure. (not gonna get into the discussion, but i've always thought that TPTB didn't know for sure that he wasn't going to return for season 6 until really late in season 5)
buy that time, they already had episodes all mapped out. I know they had to basically throw away a script (fragile balance) to accomodate meridian.
Maybe if they had known earlier in the season they wouldhave had more time to deal with it.

i think they made the best of the situation they had with the time they had
 

webmouse

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We'll never know all the details and the timing. And no I don't suppose TPTB set out to do things badly. It wouldn't be in their best interests.

I'm just sorry that they didn't have the time or the sensitivity to see how this might play out with the scripts they had in hand. When a major component of the team departs, then a lot of things have to be re-evaluated, and yes that can have a devastating effect on show costs, rewrites, rescheduling, etc.

I am left with the feeling that Jonas is being added as "quickly and painlessly" as possible -- perhaps to go unnoticed in MS's absence. If this is indeed seen as the last season, then perhaps TPTB didn't want to get too involved with spending money where they couldn't afford it on a show that is winding down. If they honestly had planned for a longer run after MS's departure, then they might have handled Jonas' intro with more care.
 

keltikkitty

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I just saw this ep for the first time last Friday. It's one of my favorites of this season so far.

I loved the end when bra'tac came back and shot the ashrack, (No I didn't believe he was dead.) and then picked up the knife and said "'this single blade did what we could not. It has brought us together. This blade has spilled the blood of the Jaffa, Tok'ra and of the Tau'ri...it will never spill our blood again." I was laughing so hard. (I was also touched but...) I had this image of the tok'ra, The Jaffa and the Tau'ri joining hands and singing cumbaya around the gate. LOL

Anyways, IMO, The writers just didn't know what to do with Jonas the first couple of eps. They probably knew that a lot of their fanbase was gone or would be angry at Jonas for killing off the beloved member of SG-1 and would soon be leaving. Also, The team members wouldn't want anything to do with Jonas because of what happened to Daniel. Jack was rather reluctant to have him Join, Sam just wanted to get rid of him, and Teal'c tolerated him. If they could, they would have left the team with three members. I know a couple of people who would just love that, and part of me wouldn't have minded it either. But, alas, the other part of me can't wait to see the next ep b/c Jonas has quickly turned (at least for me) into the character you just love to hate.

toodles
keltikkitty:aliengray
 

webmouse

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Be patient, keltikkitty. I wasn't all that keen on Jonas at first -- mostly because the writers couldn't figure out what to do with him. He doesn't appear in "Allegiance" because Corin Nemec needed time off to get married (hey, real life happens).

In "Cure" and "Prometheus" JQ becomes much more of a person. He still has no background and much of his function on the team appears to be grafted on to fill in the DJ hole, but he is growing on me -- very slowly.

After all, its that or spend my valuable SG1 watching time griping about Jonas. We're stuck with him for the rest of the season, so we might as well see if there's something -- anything -- in the character that we can like. Yes, I'd prefer the original team dynamic and miss DJ a lot, but JQ has some promise.

Now it all depends on the writers -- who seem very confident that they know what they are doing. Somehow, though, I have my doubts.

There is an old saying that runs --

"Patience is a virtue, have it if you can.
You'll seldom find it in a woman, and never in a man." :D
 

keltikkitty

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Originally posted by webmouse
Be patient, keltikkitty. I wasn't all that keen on Jonas at first -- mostly because the writers couldn't figure out what to do with him. He doesn't appear in "Allegiance" because Corin Nemec needed time off to get married (hey, real life happens).

I guess what I said sounded like I wasn't going to give Jonas a chance. I am (and have) been giving him a chance. I've seen all the ep's that they have shown on Scifi and i've seen what he has added to the show. I know i'm going to have to get used to him and i don't totally hate him. I'm sort of like Jack in that I'm wary of him as the new member of the team but he's growing on me. He's got that little way about him that adds to the show. He will never be Daniel, he will be Jonas and that's alright.

I do realize that real life happens (unfortunatly) and he wasn't in Allegience because of his marriage. That's alright. IMO, his absence adds to my idea of Jack not really trusting him offhand because he feels that Jonas is responsible for Daniel's ascendence (or whatever)

There is an old saying that runs --

"Patience is a virtue, have it if you can.
You'll seldom find it in a woman, and never in a man." :D

There is a new saying from a movie that goes...
Evelyn: Patience is a virtue
Rick: Not right now it isn't

:D

just kidding. :) I have loads of patience when it comes to Jonas. I know that's what its going to take.

maybe i should change what I said to "Jonas has quickly turned into the character you love to dislike" I don't really hate him that much.

keltikkitty:aliengray
 

webmouse

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Originally posted by keltikkitty
I'm sort of like Jack in that I'm wary of him as the new member of the team but he's growing on me. He's got that little way about him that adds to the show. He will never be Daniel, he will be Jonas and that's alright.

I do realize that real life happens (unfortunatly) and he wasn't in Allegience because of his marriage. That's alright. IMO, his absence adds to my idea of Jack not really trusting him offhand because he feels that Jonas is responsible for Daniel's ascendence (or whatever)

Actually, that's a very good interpretation -- about Jack not really trusting Jonas yet. He shouldn't. In fact, of all SG1 it should still be apparent weeks from now that Jack isn't entirely comfortable with Jonas and Jonas should be puzzled, even frustrated at why.

The logical result (which I'm sure the writers will never think of) is a very good scene in some later ep when Jack gets to express how much Daniel really meant to him (something he could never do to Daniel's face, not really) and why he can't forget Jonas' part in Daniel's departure. Then Jonas could explain (finally!) what it cost him to leave Callona and give us some insight into his depth of character. That's the point of understanding and healing, both for Jack and for us. But I doubt we'll ever see it.

One failure of many programs ("Star Trek: Voyager" comes to mind) is that a situation where some personal distrust, even animosity, is quickly overcome in one or two eps and the team is all buddy-buddy again. The Starfleet crew and the Maqui crew should have taken a lot longer to reach accommodation. Chakotai and Tom Paris should have been hostile for a lot longer, as should Chakotai and Tuvoc. It was there in the pilot, then quickly squelched. On with the show.

There's no reason why Jack should just accept Jonas beyond the level of the "new guy on the team I command." Jack has been in command for a long time, and military professionalism dictates that he do the best he can with what he has. He doesn't have to LIKE his team, just bring them home alive -- mostly.

Jonas is being paired off with Teal'c -- which is appropriate -- but Jonas should also be trying to figure out why Jack so completely trusts the former First Prime of Apophis and not the former advisor to the Callonan First Minister. If the writers are going to depend on this "tell, don't show" route instead of the more accepted "show, don't tell" then they had better get on with TELLING us something. The loss of DJ has altered the team dynamic and a new team dynamic should be forming, albeit slowly, in front of us. The writers should be showing us the direction, not leaving us wondering if they know what they're doing.

But at the very least (and I can be persuaded to ask very little of any actor) Corin Nemec is pleasant to watch. MS was more pleasant a view, but I can get used to watching CN. :blush:
 

skoon

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Originally posted by tuco
I like how the world that they are on, in no way looks like Canada. I wonder how meany planets have pine trees?

ah....ya it does! it just depends on where you are...

Fianlly saw this ep. Bored a bit...I never really like the Jaffa based stories...Anyhoo, I only saw it on mini vision download so I could be mistaken but, when Bratac was dragged off weren't his eyes open & didn't he look at the Tokra? & now that they killed the Anshrac, can't they figure out the incvisibility technology? I don't see why Jack would trust Jonas so quickley to guard his badk. Heck, he didn't trust the recruit he was training...
 

keltikkitty

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Originally posted by skoon


Fianlly saw this ep. Bored a bit...I never really like the Jaffa based stories...Anyhoo, I only saw it on mini vision download so I could be mistaken but, when Bratac was dragged off weren't his eyes open & didn't he look at the Tokra? & now that they killed the Anshrac, can't they figure out the incvisibility technology? I don't see why Jack would trust Jonas so quickley to guard his badk. Heck, he didn't trust the recruit he was training...

I thought i saw his eyes open too. I don't know about figureing out the invicibility technology. Just because you have it and can possibly work it doesn't mean you can open it right up and say "oh, that's what that does." Besides, it could've been damaged in the battle and they don't know how to fix it. I don't see why he would trust him either. Like i said before, he probably is wary about him and since he feels like he killed Daniel (or at least had some part in it) then he really shouldn't trust him until end of season 6 to beginning of Season 7.

I actually liked this episode. It's one of my favorite of the season.

keltikkitty:aliengray
 

keltikkitty

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She can't do everything though. What episode am i thinking of that she had no clue what to do. Or am i thinking of something else?

Oh well

keltikkitty:aliengray
 

Eway

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Bratac definately looked "alive". That Tok'ra guy went out like a punk!!!
 

keltikkitty

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Originally posted by Eway
Bratac definately looked "alive". That Tok'ra guy went out like a punk!!!

He did. I began to hate him then and there. But he's alright now.

keltikkitty:aliengray
 

Dave

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We get to see this tonight, but I couldn't help having a peek at this thread first. It has become another Jonas and the 'Creators' bashing thread, but one thing no one said is why don't they expand more on Jonas' alieness. One of the great things about Teal'c is that he isn't human. Why isn't Jonas more alien? He has this photographic memory -- that is a fantastic power to have, and very useful -- why is it never of any use to the team?

Originally posted by tuco
I like how the world that they are on, in no way looks like Canada. I wonder how many planets have pine trees?

Difficult to attack Stargate alone for this, as I have rarely seen a sci-fi TV show or Film that didn't have modern Earth flowering plants (Angiosperms) on alien planets. Yet they have only existed here for a small period of time.

Everyone knows that they have been introduced throughout the galaxy, by alien visitors :D The other explanation is that the Ancients actually were intelligent pine trees themselves who de-evolved intelligence. :D
 
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