6.13: Dead Things

[tokyogirl]

i think she's afraid to let herself get that attatched. deep down she knows that the anything spike has changed is for her. if he had the chance to kill again he would, he already proved that. she never meant to get this attatched or attracted in the first place, and it scares her that she could really fall for spike.

 

[Highlander II]

okay - my question, i think, was more - could they ever actually be friends? not the boyfriend/girlfriend thing - b/c that's just - ew (nope, not a shipper) --

i don't think Buffy would trust herself to be a 'girlfriend' to Spike - even now she still tries to 'convince herself' that she doesn't love/like him --- from her conversation with Tara - i know she had that look on her face that seemed to indicate that she doesn't love Spike, but her feelings could still go either way -

i'm still not 100% convinced that Spike is really in love with Buffy -

i mean - we don't really know what he's up to, what his big 'plan' is -- he's gotta have something else on his mind - he can't just be the 'shadow puppy' who tags along for the fights ---

 

[tokyogirl]

i know what you were asking. could there ever be more to their relationship than just sex? i'm not sure about that. i think they could if they tried. unlike angel, spike seems actually willing to tell her things about his past. I know loves the fact that she might be really interested in the darker side of life, but i think he also likes to see if she's going to shy away from it. it he can shock her. i think she's attracted to the fact that he doesn't shy away from it either. he accepts his past and doesn't make excuses for it. right now she's tired of everyone making excuse for her for everything. she wishes she could just deal with the past, not care about what she's done, and not have it be an issue anymore.

 

[Highlander II]

spike seems actually willing to tell her things about his past.

yeah - he tells her *some* things - but i have a feeling he leaves a *lot* out ---

he accepts his past and doesn't make excuses for it.

this is kind of an area of debate -- i'm not exactly sure where i stand on this one - but i've heard/read arguments both ways - 'yes, Spike DID tell Buffy about being a bad poet' and 'no, he didn't, that was for the benefit of the audience' --

i'm not exactly sure how much of his past he accepts, if you mean his 'vampire' past? yeah - he'll deal w/ all of that - but the 'human' part of his life? He never talks about it, so i'm not sure how much of it he actually 'accepts' ---

 

[obcooke]

Re: About the Song --

[Highlander II: the song in that scene is "Out of this World" by Bush]

Don't let me interrupt the current discussion, because it's pretty good. But I found an item relating to an earlier topic that I wanted to throw in here.

From an on-line chat with Steve DeKnight:

FAN: My fave scene (apart from the Bronze one ) was Buffy and Spike and they put their hands on the door. ([Sigh] romance) Who's idea came for the song choice. It matched perfectly....

DEKNIGHT: Thanks for the kind words. The music in the graveyard scene was picked by the amazing editor for that episode, Lisa Lassek. Keep an eye out for that name. She’s going be huge.

------------------------

As for Spike's redemption, Steve had this to say:

Buffy’s going to start being nicer to Spike when he stops being an evil dead vampire guy with a chip in his head making him play nice. He’s evil, I tells ya! Evil! Seriously, it’s a complicated relationship. These things take time. Sometimes they end well, sometimes you get a stake in the heart.

And, when a fan suggested that they should cut Spike some slack, Drew Greenberg replied:

Now, where’s the dramatic fun in slack??!? Besides, you shouldn’t feel too bad for Spike, things aren’t gonna be all bad for him. He might have one or two things to look forward to. Before we stake him. Oh, wait, don’t tell anyone about that part.


[These are not spoilers, because they are just playing with us, but they're fun to read and talk about.]

 

[tokyogirl]

this is kind of an area of debate -- i'm not exactly sure where i stand on this one - but i've heard/read arguments both ways - 'yes, Spike DID tell Buffy about being a bad poet' and 'no, he didn't, that was for the benefit of the audience' --

well, if that demon friend of anya's comes back, we'll probably find out for sure if he did tell her

 

[MythingLink]

Really is an interesting discussion. Hope you don't mind if I add my $.02 in here.

I'm more or less convinced that Buffy and Spike do like each other but that both are rebelling against the idea and that's where the conflict comes in to play. It's a little bit like the Cordy and Xander thing at the very beginning of their relationship except that where it was all right for those two to finally admit it and bring it out into the open, it isn't all right for Buffy and Spike to admit it and probably never will be.

There are a couple of scenes from previous episodes that keep popping up in my mind. The first is the one where Spike gets beaten to a pulp by Glory and Buffy pretends to be the 'bot' in order to find out what he really told her. Unless Spike knew that he was really talking to Buffy and not the 'bot', his declaration that he wouldn't want Buffy to have to go through life without Dawn was heart felt and Buffy's reaction to it was also.

Then there is the one little line of Spike's "I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man." and the end scene with Spike crying when he sees Buffy lying on the ground dead. Even if Spike was doing and saying those things to get on Buffy's good side, there wasn't anyway his crying over her death was going to help his case because she wasn't there to see it.

This may be giving Spike more than he deserves, but maybe he knows that the friendship they are feeling towards one another is wrong and can't continue. He's always been incredibly perceptive in the past. Maybe he's trying to make Buffy despise him with his actions for what he considers her own good. Maybe this is his moment when he gets his soul back when he sacrifices his feelings for her in order to save her soul.

Anyway just my $.02.

Cheers,

 

[Highlander II]

cool on the music choice! Lisa Lassek did an excellent job! can't say i'm gonna go buy the whole Bush album for the one song (tho, if i can't get it any other way, i guess i'll have to break down and do it) --

and Halfrek (Halfreck/Halfrect) (however you spell it) -- i'm thinking she's supposed to be in the show again - b/c she was invited to the wedding --- but - we'll have to wait and see --


and Spike ---

do he and Buffy like each other? honestly, it's hard to tell -

here's the question - would Spike be doing any of the 'good' things he's doing if he didn't have the behavior modification chip in his head?

he might do some of them - b/c i'm gonna guess the chip didn't have a thing in the world to do w/ his feelings toward Buffy (whatever they are) -- and, remember - he made that deal w/ Buffy (AND she invited him into the house!) to 'get' Angelus -- of course, then he came back, kidnapped 2 of Buiffy's friends, then disappeared again....

and - ah yes --- the 'secret' relationship --- "You can't tell the ones you love, you know they couldn't deal" (to quote Spike from "OMWF") --- he's right - they would NEVER be able to handle that --- well - Xander wouldn't (tho he's date/marrying an ex-demon - ah, the double standard rises again); Willow might come to accept it after a while (she's more sympathetic to Spike than most of the others); and Dawn - maybe, but she'd be more upset at Buffy than Spike (the dbl standard thing again, but diff than the Xander one) --

"Intervention" -- (the scene w/ the 'bot') - i'm pretty sure Spike didn't know it was the real Buffy - he couldn't see, for one (eye swollen shut); and the 'face of realization' he made when she kissed him - so, that was pretty 'heart felt' in my opinion --

another one i was thinking of is the episode after "The Body" - when he comes to the house w/ the flowers and Xander's an absolute a$$ about it, then Willow tells Xander than Spike didn't leave a card -- shows something there - b/c if he was the 'pain in the butt' Xander thought he was - he would have trotted up to the door, pounded and threw the flowers in Buffy's face - but he didn't - and what would he gain from leaving (stolen) flowers on the porch for Buffy's mom w/ no card? nothing -except the satisfaction that he made someone happy - since when did 'evil' (really evil) Spike care whether Buffy and Dawn were happy or not?

and, MythingLink, i like your take on Spike's reasons for doing what he's doing -- making Buffy dislike him (sort of) to get her to push him away ---- interesting tactic he has there, though, if that's the case -

 

[MythingLink]

Another thing it could be ... and this is again maybe giving Spike more that he deserves ... is that he's trying to show her that things aren't all 'black and white' when it comes to being 'alive' and interacting with everyone around you.

Besides the 'werewolf' thing where they all admit that there is a person in there who might be a contributing member of society except for 3 nights of the month, when have any of them ever really taken into consideration that the demons, specifically the vamps, are victims themselves?

Spike and Dru, no matter what they are, have always maintained that vampires can love, can have feelings. It's been shown in a number of episodes by a number of different vampires that this is true. Leaving out the whole Buffy/Angel thing because he does have his soul.

Maybe he's trying to show her the idea that good vs. evil isn't all that easy to define ... that there are different levels of good and evil ... that they really intertwine with each other.

Okay getting out of philosophy mode.

Cheers,

 

[Highlander II]

Maybe he's trying to show her the idea that good vs. evil isn't all that easy to define ... that there are different levels of good and evil ... that they really intertwine with each other.

ya know -- Buffy said the same thing to Riley when he didn't approve of Oz when he came back -- so Buffy KNOWS this - she just chooses to ignore it when it comes to Spike --

she's just hated Spike for so long, she doesn't know how to 'feel' anything else toward him -- even tho he's done SO much to help her and her Scooby friends --- even if his reasons have been selfish - he's done some 'selfless' things too -- how many vamps you know would get the tar beat out of them to protect a secret about his supposed 'mortal enemy'??

also - i kinda get the feeling that Spike likes Dawn - or, even if he doesn't, he understands her - esp after that 'key' thing -- she doesn't know where she came from or where she really fits in - Spike's kinda in the same boat - he's a vamp, but the demons/vamps hate him, but he's not really human - and they hate him too -- so, he's kinda stuck in the middle of nowhere ---

 

[tokyogirl]

as far as spike pushing buffy away, i think you're right, but for kind of different reasons. i'm not sure spike could deal with buffy completely recipricating his feelings. they've been doing this dance for so long i think it kind of scares him that they might work as a couple. when he keeps reminding buffy that her friends would never accept them, i think he kind of does it for 2 reasons. one is to kind of push her away, and hopefully they won't get too close and he won't have to deal with it. on the other hand, if she were to tell her friends, maybe she would choose her friends over him, and he again wouldn't have to deal. his relationship with dru was always (until recently) totally mutual. the only other time he had feelings for a girl, as far as we know, she turned him down. and not neccessarily because she didn't like him, but because of social status. that's his fear with buffy, that she'll turn him down in the end, but if he can control that rejection he can maybe come away with some of his dignity intact.

 

[tokyogirl]

ok, i hate being the first one to post after my last post, but i just thought of something and i need to get it down before i sleep and it all gets jumbled. now i haven't really gone thru everything on this so bear with me.....
ok, i was looking thru the buffy clips i have from kazaa and i realized how things are starting to come full circle. of course you remember the infamous scene where spike tells buffy and angel they'll never be friends. he tells them that love is blood not brains. i was thinking about it and in a way he was having to teach them about love. buffy had never really been in love before and neither had angel. with darla it was never really love and he knows that. (maybe that's why he still feels that vamps can't love) i mean, spike even went so far as to call them children. spike knew about love. but then when dru left him everything he thought he knew about love was gone. especially when he started having feelings for buffy. that's why he really doesn't know what to do. but then there's the other infamous scene where things really come full circle. where the real buffy pretends to be the buffy bot when she's talking to spike, and kisses him. when she talks to him about the robot and is explaining what's real and what's not, it's almost like she's chastising a small child. if you can go back and watch how she reacts when he tries to explain about the robot. it's like now she has to teach him about love, but she's scared to. anyways, i'm going to sleep now, and if this doesn't make much sense it's because it's late and me sleepy!


(by the way, why don't we have a sleepy smiley? i need one)

 

[VAMPette]

There's so much in this discussion that I can't take in all in in one reading so I'm just going to plunge straight into my opinion. Sorry to anyone if I am just repeating what they've said.

1. I've said before that Spike is taking on Giles role in BTVS and I think that's one of the things that has attracted Buffy to him. She's going through an incredibly traumatic period in her life, and Giles, the one person she thought she could rely on for anything, has left her. Who does she turn to but Spike? And why? Because Spike will do anything for her - he was willing to lay down his life to protect her and her sister if needs be, he's the only one of her "friends" who is willing to tackle the fact that it is completely unnatural for her to be living, she can take out her frustration on him and he is still there for her, he tells her that he can support her financially, he becomes a big brother figure to her wee sis, he sorts out her mess time and time again, including in this episode where he takes care of the fact that she killed Katrina (or thought she did). I don't know how anyone could think that Spike doesn't care for her - it may not be healthy, in fact it is a completely abnormal obsession but he is there for her in any way she wants him to be. I think that she is freaking out so much over the relationship is that even tho' she knows it is wrong and unnatural for them to be together that it feels right - he's the only one who can make her feel. Lets face it, the scoobies are moving on with their own lives and Buffy has been left alone to face up to what is an incredibly scary and adult existance and she is unwilling to face it alone. Therefore in the absence of Giles, she's going to turn to the one person who can be strong for her i.e. Spike.

2. Spike is a complete loner, who obviously takes a complete obsession with someone when he does choose to be with someone, and I think he really dislikes Buffy being so close to her friends. So of course, when he tackles Buffy about not telling them about him, hes trying to say that they are not as close as she thinks. It's another 'Yoko' thing - he wants her all to himself.

3. To the question, could they be friends? I don't know, but I do think that there is a connection between them which goes deeper than sex and lust, maybe even love.

 

[VAMPette]

Hi, sorry, I had a visitor last night, who cut me off in my prime. So I have to finish my last post.

Okay so I was talking about the connection between Buffy and Spike - Spike is fond of telling Buffy that they're the same, that they're both creatures of the night. In a way, this is just him trying to control her, but in other ways, I think he is right. They both live completely lonely existences, which no-one else can really understand unless they are experiencing it themselves. And now, they have more in common, because they are both removed from their normal way of life, Spike thru his chip, Buffy thru being dead and revived again. Both have stated that they know what they'r doing is wrong, but they are drawn to each other. It's a type of soulmate thing.

So I think I'm basically agreeing with Obcooke, when he said that Buffy has to face up to the consequences of her actions. Part of her not doing this, is being with Spike, he's a easy choice, he'll look after her. But in doing this, she has to surrender to his control, so it's going to be more damaging for her in the long run. And I think that's what she's scared of more than anything else.

Whew, glad I got that off my chest!

 

[markpud]

a lot has alreay been said about the episode now, but i'd mainly like ot echo HIIs early comments about there being a good use of Spike in this one, which makes a change over recent weeks..

right from the start with the "are we having a conversation?" bit, to the beat-down at the end, which btw I thought she incapacitated him a bit too easy, although he wasn't really fighting back...

Good twist for the geeks, they've moved up from annoying to actual bordering on evil now with the attempted mental framing of Buffy for the murder.

I'm still not sure where this season is going, in past seasons theres been a clear "big bad" and apocalypse event to end the season, but unless the geeks summon something so powerful that it becomes the big bad for the season end, I cant see a fight with them being a hugely interesting season climax.

Or perhaps Joss is going to go for a purely " personal demons" finish to the season??

 

[VAMPette]

I hope there is a Big Bad tho'. Usually, Buffy seasons follow a formula and it seems to be departing from that in this season, which makes it a bit disjointed and doesn't seem to be going anywhere fast. But maybe if there is a 'greater plan' then it will all be tied up into one big climax.

 

[markpud]

I have to agree.. the season has been very different to previous ones. This is the halfway point of the season and the geeks are looking most likely as the foe for the "big finish" and this doesn't thril me hugely... but I have faith in Joss, and he usually delivers the goods

 

[VAMPette]

Yeah, if he can't do it, no-one can!!:rolly2:

 

[markpud]

can't help wondering if Spike will become the big bad again at the end, although they've already done the lover turns to bad guy storyline at some point before havent they....

 

[VAMPette]

So far as options we have Spike, the geeks, Amy, Halfrek and Anya

Spoiler

if she goes back to being a vengence demon again

as the Big Bad. Don't know about you lot, but it doesn't really shiver me timbers.