5.04: The Fifth Man

ShelbyS

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Originally posted by Anni

I thought it was a well done and well acted episode, but it was the same old, same old......
:rolleyes:
I disagree. It had alot more a conspiracy twist to it, more than we ever saw with Maybourne (like I said before Simmons is evil, Maybourne was just a pain in the @ss)
I think Janet got more of a mention in this ep which was nice to see and we also see a real direct confrontation between Hammond and Simmons, which hasn't really happened alot inthe past.
 

Anni

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And you don't call that the same old, same old?

Simmons and Maybourne are both cut from the same cloth. Simmons is probably higher up the chain of command, which makes him more dangerous... a lot more dangerous.

but my original contention was that the enemy was supposed to be 'out there', and apparently are not really out there any more. Certainly not as a huge threat. We are now faced with internal Earth politics and intrigue, instead of the original exciting idea of a threat from another species. One so horrific that they have kept this part of the Galaxy under their thrall for centuries. It was what leant the magic to the film in the first place, and for many people, also leant the same magic to the series.

The show has cariacatured the real enemy out of existence practically.

You can disagree with me as much as you wish. But there are many fans out there who agree....

Not that it makes any kind of difference of course. Because the producers and writers will do whatever they want no matter what we say on here.
 

tatter

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originally posted by anni:
Not that it makes any kind of difference of course. Because the producers and writers will do whatever they want no matter what we say on here.

oh i don't know about that- i read some interview where the powers that be won't be having back tokra spice-anise/freya because of the bad fan reaction. :rolly2: :D

but i too get tired of all the conspiracy theory stuff too.
;)
 

skydiver

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Originally posted by ShelbyS

They do that all the time!!!!
They also use Davis twice (Paul and Walter)
Jonas and Jonah (sam's ex and jack in 2010)
Charlie O'Neill and Charlie Kawalsky
Kalan twice (Learning Curve and Beneath the Surface)
there are a few more, but i can't think of them at the moment.
you can rack up a third davis...laura siddiq, the female tech, is credited as technician davis
we've had 2 bakers...in first commandment and in small vics
and the charlie that was the ree-tou kid from show and tell
two hudsons, both members of sg-3
jenny the friend of michael, jennifer haley from prodigy
martouf(marty), martin (marty) lloyd
and 3 warrens, one in cotg, one in sg-3 and one taken over by aliens in foothold

but they did get one thing right. there has only been one tyler...it was jack's kid's name in the movie so technicaly there hasn't been a tyler in the sgc
 

imported_Sandman

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i agree with Anni about the jaffa. they were beyond incompetent. bumbling to the point of cosmic proportions. i understand that they might not have wanted to shoot the alien, perhaps in fear of damaging it beyond repair and therefor use. but there were four other targets (who were often in range and not too well hidden). apparently jaffa boot camp standards are slipping. :rolleyes:
 

Anni

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My thoughts are like this:

Movie started everything off with the big menacing and mysterious threat from a hideous and fairly powerful species. Jack in the movie only managed to kill him by default. Not because he was a better soldier. But because he was pushed into a corner and desperate. We are all left to think at the end that the threat has ended with the death of Ra.

Series started off by carrying on where the movie left off, but only now the humans find that the threat has not gone, that there are more of Ra's kind and they aren't a nice bunch of people. I decide to watch it because this is a promising continuation of a fascinating concept.

For some reason, known only to themselves, the production PTB decide that the enemy is to be neutered, but not yet annihilated. Based on what, I cannot fathom, except that there is a rather typically US need to be thought of as an invincible super power, so even in something as small as a TV show, the enemy have to have their claws pulled and their fangs drawn. It is unacceptable for the viewers to be subject to the sight of the might of the US Military being battered into submission by a bunch of aliens. the fact that in reality the Vietcong did exactly that to the US military and they were human themselves is beside the point. The US military have never forgotten their defeat in Vietnam. Even though it was hardly their fault.

At any rate this desire to be seen as 'top dog' no matter what is reflected in many films and tv shows, and it often colours what scripts pass muster and which ones don't. I have even had this discussion with a couple of American movie and tv script writers when I worked for Polygram and they said the same thing.

So the Goa'uld are minimised, and turned into a comedy hall joke. So now we don't really have an effective threat, so the writers come up with lego bugs. They apparently don't think or feel, so it's okay to not worry about killing them.

But you can't bore the folk with lego all the time, so what to do? We develop the SG1 characters, hint at their lives outside the base and their friendships and caring for one another.

But some fans may get fed up with that, so what to do next? You add a little internal intrigue with people like Maybourne, who then, unfortunately, turned into a somewhat 'romantic' sort of figure, a character who did a Hannibal the cannibal and went to a tropical island instead of back to a jail cell. Now they're left with a gap, so they fill it with an even more sinister character called Colonel Simmons who can apparently summon the might of the sneak beaky Pentagon department at the flick of a finger. And he has the nerve to interrogate SG1.... gasp!!

If you add to all of this, the apparently easy peasy lemon squeezy killing of a slack handful of the now neutered System Lords - who have had their teeth and claws pulled, so they can't bite the other puppies any more - a smidgeon of Action Daniel, stoic Teal'c, defiant Sam and heroic Jack, some incompetent Jaffa and a few bits of angst with an alien, you have a recipe for a satisfactorily dampened down, but still entertaining show that the poor little viewers can watch without their consciences being pricked by such nasty things like threats from other species or even whether there was some other powerful species on earth before the Americans.

Sorry, but this is how it has developed in my view. And everyone just buys into it. Not that they are necessarily wrong. It's their choice. I would just like to see one American tv show or movie that didn't insult my intelligence or stretch my credibility level. I would love to see one that made me sit up and think.

Stargate the movie, and the first showings of Stargate did that for me. But don't do it for me any longer. Yet I still watch in the hopes that they will prove me wrong. I could be a lot more comprehensive in these declarations but I don't want to take up the whole forum!

PHEW!!!! That certainly stretched my brain at 1am!!!

:cool:
 

ShelbyS

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Originally posted by Anni

If you add to all of this, the apparently easy peasy lemon squeezy killing of a slack handful of the now neutered System Lords - who have had their teeth and claws pulled, so they can't bite the other puppies any more
MISC s3,4 SPOLIERS AHEAD
*
*
*
Yeah, that's true, I agree. They got rid of soooo many good System Lords. There was so much potential to do more with alot of them. I think the way they killed off Heru'r at the end of Serpent's Venom was REALLY pitiful. Dont'even get me started on Sokar's demise (they could have done some brilliant things with him!). And I was also sad to see Hathor go. There was so much more they could have done to make these Goa'uld really intersting enemies. Instead they killed most of them, and now they fill the void by throwing Osiris into the mix (i still can't get over Osiris in a woman's body, it just dosn't seem right?), but where is she anyway?
 

ShelbyS

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Originally posted by skydiver

you can rack up a third davis...laura siddiq, the female tech, is credited as technician davis
we've had 2 bakers...in first commandment and in small vics
and the charlie that was the ree-tou kid from show and tell
two hudsons, both members of sg-3
jenny the friend of michael, jennifer haley from prodigy
martouf(marty), martin (marty) lloyd
and 3 warrens, one in cotg, one in sg-3 and one taken over by aliens in foothold
but they did get one thing right. there has only been one tyler...it was jack's kid's name in the movie so technicaly there hasn't been a tyler in the sgc
Yeah, nice list sky!
Let's not forget the two Sarah's - O'Neill and Gardiner.
Also with the 'warrens', there was also dr. warner (which sort of sounds the same)
also, (i have no idea if this is right-tell me if not), but isn't Dr. McKenzie's first name Paul as well?
 

Anni

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A couple of months ago, I got into a discussion with another fan over the way that it was comparatively easy for SG1 to kill off the enemy. A most horrific argument, definitely not a debate, raged, because I maintained that the script writers, producers and PTB seemed to be deliberately 'de-sensitising' (for want of a better word) the show from the point of view of the enemies that earth was facing.

In the argument, I questioned the deaths of Hathor, Sokar, Heru-ur and Chronos, pointing out that instead of developing these characters to their full potential and thereby maintaining the supposed invincibility, menace and mystery of this hideously powerful enemy of earth, they appeared throughout the series to slowly take the focus off that, and place it elsewhere.

The other lady had a much more simplistic view. To her it was just another 'Let's beat the aliens into submission and be the heroic humans and saviours of the galaxy' show. which excited her greatly. Even to the extent where, if a Goa'uld was killed she apparently jumped up and down with excitement. Which is fine. Her choice, but it got me to thinking.

In the movie and at the beginning of the series, even slightly up to Season 3, the Goa'uld threat was still fairly in the forefront of the saga. Then all of a sudden, we were faced with a plethora of other matters. Internal intrigue, friendly aliens, interplay and character development among the human characters and especially the team.

Don't get me wrong, I know that most folk think that I am against these aspects of the show. I assure you I am not. But I don't agree with the extent of the priority that was placed on them. They could have done ALL of that, but STILL not lost the focus of an enemy who was so awful that everyone was under threat. This last aspect has been slowly buried under the more day to day doings and goings on in the SGC.

My complaint is that they have lost the mystery and menace of the original threat and are busy trying to replace it with threats that will be easier for the viewers of the show to handle (in the eyes of the PTB) I am not mean to suggest here that you guys don't view the show with great intelligence and rationality. Obviously you do. But there are a number of people out there who just want to have an adventure show, with relationships (some intimate), some intrigue and a lot of butt kicking. A Space Opera with spice. They don't want to have to deal with the fact that the defeat of such an enemy might not be within the actual scope of a small group of explorers from earth. They want to believe that SG1 are heroes and will always be able to kick butt and come through for earth.

So the PTB seem to have decided to kill off the threat. For all I know, they could have decided to kill off the threat altogether. This Summit episode for instance. A group of System Lords all in the same place? What better situation for SG1 to go in under cover and taken them all out? That would probably solve the question of the Goa'uld threat once and for all. And we know that this would be highly acceptable for a great many of the fans. But it would make the show into a damp squib and the only things it would have to recommend it then would be the things that the major part of the fans seem to really want. I.e. occasional action, lots of character development, internal intrigues (because they are easier for the viewers to handle and accept than aliens) and some exploration.

But no excitement. Or mystery. Or that breathtaking fear that whatever out there is so horrific that we can hardly comprehend it. That's the stuff of the primitive instincts of the human.... The ONLY instincts we are left with when the threat is to awful to comprehend. Fight, freeze or flee. It's what used to drive people to read horror stories or watch horror films. The idea that there are more things in heaven and earth that are dreamt of in your philosophy. I'm not left with that feeling now in this show.

And that's my complaint. Have all the rest by all means, but don't remove the one thing that maintains the impetus of the saga.

You know guys, I should be writing my book here, not writing sagas on these forums..... LOL I have a deadline!

:D :rolly2: :cool:
 

ShelbyS

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yeah, i agree. the goa'uld thread needs to be brought back into the fore-front. In the words of Peter Williams (Apophis), "I would like to see the Goa'uld up the ante".
I would like to see some serious Goa'uld action. It does get boreing when SG-1 manage to take them all out. I would like to see a serious threat, with lots of angst. But this dosn't necessarily mean that the relationship/character development needs to suffer or vice-versa. I think there is an equilibrium where we can have great character interaction and still maintain the fantastic action.
 

tatter

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i kind of agree with what you guys are saying but.....
if they got their butts kicked and killed there would be no show. the cardinal rule of television that even my little kids know (at one point when it looked like jack would get killed, and sg1 showed up last second to save his butt-my 8 year old goes-he can't be killed he's a main character-her words not mine..though probably repeated ...anyway excuse the rambling....i think that tpb are using more of a david and golith(sp?) approach to the whole story line. the goa'ulds were not killed before because their subjects or slaves from other planets were too scared to try and the tokra didn't want to upset the balance of power ie tangent..i think they are trying to show before sg1 came along no one tried to kill the system lords.. and since they are in a human body they are pretty easy to kill...not so much that we are the big bad americans who can always kick butt.
 

skydiver

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desperate measures spoilers

here's something for y'all to debate:

it was rumored that a big, nasty bad@$$ goa'uld code named baltimore was suposed to show up in season 5. now i know we're only 4 eps in but...what if simmons is a goa'uld?

now hear me out...

why can't sam sense him? what if simmons was part of maybourne's cronies and they went on a missin to p3x888(first ones, where rothy bought it) the goa'uld there did not have naquadah in their system and sam sat 3 feet away from rothy and didn't sense him or the ones in the water. or...there could have been goa'uld on earth for millennia...we know they were here 3000 years ago...who's to say they weren't before?

why is he doing what he's doing? he and his kind want control of the gate so they can get out there and kick some goa'uld @$$ and get back to dominating the galaxy. and to do that they need to have control of hte gate, and to do that they need to get hammy & sg-1 out of hte way. that would explain simmons and his witch hunt.

it would also explain his paranoia about aliens. we could make frineds with someone who could blow his cover.

and...desperate measures is touted as a 'sam disappears' story. what if she's doing some digging on simmons, and comes too close to or finds out the truth. that would be ample motive to make her disappear..



100000% pure speculation but...what do y'all think?
 

ShelbyS

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Wow, sky, that is some rumor. Very interesting theory there.
The thing is, that is does seem VERY plausible. It fits and it could easily be true. I did get the feeling early on that there was something fishy about that guy, maybe he is a goa'uld.

Also, on the point about Sam's disappearance in Desperate Measures-Harry Mayboure is in this ep, Jack/SG-1 may turn to Harry for help again because he may know the truth - that Simmons is a goa'uld.
 

jsc

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It would be fun if Col. Simmons as played by John de Lancie were a goa'uld..... but remember folks that Simmons showed Daniel a picture of Sarah/Osiris.... Sorry guys....and that combo might be Baltimore....
 

Jaxie

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abour fifth man - did anone else notice that the shot of the death glider going up then turning arouns was the same one form cotg?
 

skydiver

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thought it looked familiar. just like the briefing footage simmons showed danny was from entity...good old PdL, saving money by recycling footage
 

Jaxie

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yes good an all but is it really that good when you notice. byt he way, what was the dat on the debreifing footage?
 

suebsg1

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do you guys actually think they would kill apothis, big bad gould we are going to call 'replicator apothis' :) simmons could be working for kinsey trying to shut down the program, kinsey didn't succeed so send in someone that can dig up info and simmons can do that :)

tell ya apothis ain't dead, you can't kill him :)

su
 

Highlander II

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1st - i hated this episode - it was terrible - and boring --- i've only watched it once - i tried to watch it again and fell asleep -- so i probably won't drag it out again -- as a matter of fact - i was so depressed after this ep, i had to get out "Foothold" to cheer myself up -- needed to see the 'good guy' from the Pentagon --

2nd - i have to agree w/ anni -- the series has slipped just a smidge -- what happened to the threat? (aside from Col Simmons - who i DON'T like at all) --- didn't Jacob tell Jack that b/c SG-1 had been going around killing goa'ulds that other 'more powerful' goa'ulds have stepped up to take their places??

why does SG-1 have to 'win' at the end of every ep - (and the TBC eps don't count) -- why can't something truly 'bad' happen and the SGC just has to live with it?? (something they sort of accomplished in the next ep, Red Sky) --

if the goa'uld are such a formidable enemy, why is it so easy for SG-1 to kick their butts? esp w/ their 'primitive' weapons -- okay - so the knife through Heru'ur's hand was really cool (but i like knives) -- but they just load up a bomb and blow them up --- ooh -- there's excitement for you ----


okay - i think i'm done rambling for now -- have fic to write ---
 

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