What does Fantasy need?

[BAYLOR]

I won't go into my sort of involved theory see and now, but I think that genre sf and genre fantasy has undergone the literary equivalent of a corporate merger. readers start a genre fantasy book with many of the same assumptions as a historical fiction or space opera reader. for example, imaginary countries will have histories. they will have "plausible" histories. they will have a defined geography and you look at maps that show them. magic has rules, etc. whereas if you pick up Beagle's The Last Unicorn, say, none of these things exist. the author would only invent just as much of a setting as the story would need to have to hang together. earlier readers and writers didn't care about setting or the logic of a setting to such an overwhelming extent.

I like to think of fat traditional genre fantasies of these type as what I think of as "map opera", as an analogy to "space opera". space opera has certain conventions and assumptions. map opera has certain conventions and assumptions and they have many in common. readers want and like a certain amount of comforting familiarity and predictability. they want the settings to hang together, in some way, better than the real world does.

William Morris's The Well at The End of the World takes place in a standard medieval setting .

In The The Wizard of OZ L Frank Baum was just winging it with regard to setting of OZ

 

[olive]

I don't know what it needs it or not, but I want fantasy to tell the stories of small people in ordinary lives. I don't want big worlds, epic cities and events. I don't want saviours. I don't want to read the stories of heroes, chosen ones, big, superhero like characters. I don't want the characters to look good or be smart or have some very rare and important skill, an exceptional birth, background... I don't want to see black and white characters, but gray ones.

I want to see human condition, vulnerability, conflict, real characters and character development, clumsiness, awkwardness...

 

[BAYLOR]

As much as I like epic world building and story arcs.

However . I still he like old fashioned heroic fantasy with the larger then life characters , Conans the Kane , Fafhard . Jirel , Red Sonja and the Grey Mouser ect.

 

[ryubysss]

William Morris's The Well at The End of the World takes place in a standard medieval setting .

sure. and many other writers' work took place in similar settings. the writers, though, didn't set out to engage in the sort of building of a consistent miniature world. if they wanted to have a thing, they had a thing. they'd put in that thing. they cared about the emotional texture and the feeling of antiquity. a sketched-in background, at best. because they didn't feel they needed to have anything more.

in my opinion, Tolkien and Dune collectively changed all of that. also, and I don't mean this as a joke, but seriously, the Star Trek and Star Wars technical manuals and Tolkein guidebooks that appeared in the late '70s. for the first time, you had all these fictional worlds documented and put down into paper, separate from the works themselves. and, of course, Tolkien's imitators, with Terry Brooks the first, major one.

I could go into far more detail about this.

In The The Wizard of OZ L Frank Baum was just winging it with regard to setting of OZ

as nearly every author prior to Tolkien, when telling stories in imaginary worlds, to a greater or lesser degree. (the sf writer Cordwainer Smith stands out as an exception. offhand I can't think of any others.) they either defaulted to their imaginations or to that and the historical world.

 

[BAYLOR]

sure. and many other writers' work took place in similar settings. the writers, though, didn't set out to engage in the sort of building of a consistent miniature world. if they wanted to have a thing, they had a thing. they'd put in that thing. they cared about the emotional texture and the feeling of antiquity. a sketched-in background, at best. because they didn't feel they needed to have anything more.

in my opinion, Tolkien and Dune collectively changed all of that. also, and I don't mean this as a joke, but seriously, the Star Trek and Star Wars technical manuals and Tolkein guidebooks that appeared in the late '70s. for the first time, you had all these fictional worlds documented and put down into paper, separate from the works themselves. and, of course, Tolkien's imitators, with Terry Brooks the first, major one.

I could go into far more detail about this.



as nearly every author prior to Tolkien, when telling stories in imaginary worlds, to a greater or lesser degree. (the sf writer Cordwainer Smith stands out as an exception. offhand I can't think of any others.) they either defaulted to their imaginations or to that and the historical world.

The setting for several of James of Brach Cabell's fantasy novels is the imaginary medieval french province of Poictesme . Robert E Howard wrote a synopsis of the Hyborian Age of 15,000 years ago which was the setting for Conan the Barbarian , He borrowed from history or made up names l of the kingdoms and kingdoms and peoples in the world he created . Howard died in 1936 one year before Tolkien published the Hobbit. I often wonder what he would have made of the book and Lord of the Rngs and the world world building tfantys that came long after his time. Clark Aston Smith set in stories in pre and post modern kingdom . Hyperboria , Poseidonus, and Ziccarph in the distant future.

Tolkien didn't invent world building in fantasy , but he certainly improved on it quite a bit. and Yes Herbert did the same for science fiction. I agree with that.

 

[ryubysss]

Howard devoted only a couple of pages to outlining the history of the Hyborian Age, after he had already written a couple of short works set there. he didn't fill journals. he didn't obsess about it, as far as I know.

Cabell probably comes closest to delineating a fictional world, in terms of genealogy, as far as I know, but as far as I know he didn't work out who had ruled Poictesme and when (unless it mattered to the story), for example.

when you referenced Smith, you said, Ziccarph when I think you meant Zothique. he did also make up a fictional planet called Xiccarph, though.

 

[BAYLOR]

Howard devoted only a couple of pages to outlining the history of the Hyborian Age, after he had already written a couple of short works set there. he didn't fill journals. he didn't obsess about it, as far as I know.

Cabell probably comes closest to delineating a fictional world, in terms of genealogy, as far as I know, but as far as I know he didn't work out who had ruled Poictesme and when (unless it mattered to the story), for example.

when you referenced Smith, you said, Ziccarph when I think you meant Zothique. he did also make up a fictional planet called Xiccarph, though.

In case of Smith I do get crossed up with the names he used . I had the book Zothique at one point . Currently I have Nightshades 5 volumes set with all his stories. Im currently re reading his stories. In terms writing style the closest ive ever seen to him is William Beckford's novel Vathek. Smith had something to do with translating and explain a changer that was not included in Vathek when it came out and expanding on it. have the story in my collection. In short fiction , he's simply one of the best ever. He influenced a number of writers . Jack Vance's Dying Earth sequence of novels, the novel Magus Rex by Jack Lovejoy does a nod or two to Smith . Michael Shea's , Nift the Lean stories. My favorite stories by Smith are The City of the Singing Flame. and it's sequel Beyond the Singing Flame, I think he planned a 3rd tale in that i sequence but never got around too writing it .


Further off topic for one second . Have you ever read Seabury Quinn's Juels De Grandin stories ?

 

[elvet]

My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances. I particularly like stories about modern day people transported to a fantasy universe, like Fionavar Tapestry. There doesn’t seem to be many grand books like that written anymore. (Urban fantasy does’t count, as I am not a big fan, sorry!)

 

[BAYLOR]

My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances. I particularly like stories about modern day people transported to a fantasy universe, like Fionavar Tapestry. There doesn’t seem to be many grand books like that written anymore. (Urban fantasy does’t count, as I am not a big fan, sorry!)

Might I suggest Jack Chalker's Dancing Gods series . His standalone novel And the Devil Will Drag You Under . Barbara Hamblys . Darwaith books an Silicon Mage series ?

 

[ryubysss]

Further off topic for one second . Have you ever read Seabury Quinn's Juels De Grandin stories ?

I've heard of them but haven't read them. not a fan of more traditional pulp stuff. I've tried reading work in that vein (Conan, etc.) and couldn't get into it.

 

[BAYLOR]

I've heard of them but haven't read them. not a fan of more traditional pulp stuff. I tried that (Conan, etc.) and couldn't get into them.

Ive read lot of pulp , some it is quite good , some of it is not so good at all. In many cases, it is what it is.

The Jues De Grandin stories are quite good and more then a bit above traditional pulp. Quinn wrote about 93 tales staring De Grandin and his associate Dr Trowbridge , which included one full one length novel . The stories were written between 1925 and 1951 , Quinn died in 1969 , Pretty much forgotten . De Granin is supernatural detective, he and Trowbridge battle not only supernatural darkness . Its a bit like Xflies. and Kolchak the Night Stalker.

 

[olive]

My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances.

This.

 

[The Big Peat]

I want authors to tell me what fantasy needs. I want to be persuaded, blown away by their visions. For them to persuade me that I like things that I'd have never considered.

It's not that I don't have cravings and favourites. I do. But they're contradictory. I want stories about normal people in abnormal worlds... but I also want stories that cleave hard to fantasy's mythic roots and where everybody is abnormal. The genre's deep enough and my tastes broad enough that I want pretty much everything. I just don't know what it is until I get it. Books that seems like they were written to pander to my deepest desires fall short. Books that I only picked up because they were just cheap became my favourites.

 

[CTRandall]

I want authors to tell me what fantasy needs. I want to be persuaded, blown away by their visions. For them to persuade me that I like things that I'd have never considered.

Like a detective noir novel written in a completely fantasy setting with a worn-down, aging paladin in the role of Sam Spade?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I want to be persuaded, blown away by their visions.

This is exactly what I want. Take me somewhere I have never been before. Make it so convincing that I believe everything about it. (That doesn't mean that it needs to be all laid out and logical; there are things that the heart and imagination recognize as true regardless of what logic tells them.) Immerse me in the world and the characters.

 

[Toby Frost]

I agree, and to a fair extent I wouldn't care much what was in the book if it was executed well enough. I am as guilty of this as the next writer, and I realise that it's a convenient way to market a book, but I am tired of being sold books as essentially a tick-list of cool things included in the story. Whenever I see this, I always end up thinking "Yes, but is it any good?"

I wonder if this is a side-effect of growing up without any real fan community, but for many years my attitude to my favourite writers was just "let's see what crazy stuff they do next". The reason I liked the writers that I did was that I liked their style, rather than their settings as such. If John Wyndham had written a book about the Norse gods, I would have read that too, because I would have expected him to tackle the subject in a way that I liked.

 

[ryubysss]

if a book contains intriguing elements then I tend to take that as an indicator that the author has good instincts. out of all the possible elements that they could employ, they'd employed these ones. not saying that it always acts as reliable guide (like the book that I picked up from the library because of the premise where the writing, while not poor, didn't wow me), but sometimes does.

 

[BAYLOR]

I don't know what it needs it or not, but I want fantasy to tell the stories of small people in ordinary lives. I don't want big worlds, epic cities and events. I don't want saviours. I don't want to read the stories of heroes, chosen ones, big, superhero like characters. I don't want the characters to look good or be smart or have some very rare and important skill, an exceptional birth, background... I don't want to see black and white characters, but gray ones.

I want to see human condition, vulnerability, conflict, real characters and character development, clumsiness, awkwardness...

My favourite part about fantasy is ‘normal people in an abnormal world’. I know that is very vague, and can apply to SF as well, but the best stories are regular Joe-blows who find themselves in exceptional circumstances. I particularly like stories about modern day people transported to a fantasy universe, like Fionavar Tapestry. There doesn’t seem to be many grand books like that written anymore. (Urban fantasy does’t count, as I am not a big fan, sorry!)

y\You both might find of interesest Faerie Tale by Raymond Feist .

and while not strictly a fantasy The Heads of Cerberus by Francis Stevens

 

[Guttersnipe]

I'm actually bored with medieval fantasies, particularly of the European variety. I'd like to see more urban fantasy and unique worldbuilding. Also, it would be great if the writers added other genres to the mix, like mystery or thriller, for example.
A few other things:
*Middle Eastern settings
*dark comedy
*a sci-fi influence and setting, like dieselpunk
* a stronger focus on philosophy
*chaotic neutral main characters
*prehistoric settings, with dinosaurs and/or prehistoric mammals
*no magic

 

[Lew Rockwell Fan]

99% of fantasy, I don't care for, but there's the 1%. Which at least makes for a different viewpoint. I suggest reading de Camp and notice how he handles humor, Turtledove and how he handles dialog, and Meyers and how he handles allegory. That last is a deep hole. Niven for what some call "logical fanasy", but you may consider that outside the genre. Caveat: I thought Tokein was a bore, so what do I know about what's marketable?