Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie? [Possible Spoilers]

WadeK

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I just finished re-reading The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword, and I am now firmly convinced that Ser Duncan the Tall is in fact not even a knight. He lied about Sir Arlan of Pennytree knighting him on his deathbed. Here's why -

in The Hedge Knight

1. He thinks briefly about finding another knight to take service with as a squire. If Arlan had really knighted Dunk, why would that even occur to him?

2. He hesitates to knight Sir Raymun FossFossoway. Any knight may make a knight, but Duncan doesn't want to perform the act because he doesn't want his lie to affect his friend.

in The Sworn Sword

1. When Lady Rohanne asks Dunk flat out if Ser Arlan knighted him, Dunk responds evasively - "No one else was like to do it."

I am sure that there are other clues that I missed, but I am convinced that Ser Duncan is living a lie. We know he ends up as Lord COmmander of Aegon's Kingsgaurd...will his lie come back to haunt him at some point?
 

Aegon the Unworthy

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

Wade....I dont know what to say, other than (insert best cheesy Ed McMahon impersonation)

"You are correct sir"

But really....does it matter? To paraphrase Sandor Clegane...once you get past all the oils and the chilvary a knight is just a horse with a sword....
 

Winters_Sorrow

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

WadeK said:
I just finished re-reading The Hedge Knight and The Sworn Sword, and I am now firmly convinced that Ser Duncan the Tall is in fact not even a knight. He lied about Sir Arlan of Pennytree knighting him on his deathbed....will his lie come back to haunt him at some point?

Most likely yes.
Though I'm sure he's far from the only Hedge 'Knight' to proclaim himself Ser.

It's a pretty empty title without any land to back it up with though.
As I recall wasn't young Fossaway knighted by Lionel Baratheon? I think Duncan was still struggling into his armour at the time.
 

Aegon the Unworthy

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

Nah WS, the gathered knights first looked to Duncan to swear in the Green Apple, but Dunk made some excuse to get out of there after stalling for a sec or two...
 

Koopa

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

baelor vouchsaved for him, so in a way doesn't that make him a real knight, after all there are onl a few who would dare gainsay a prince

This reminds me a bit of the movie "a knight's tale"
 

WadeK

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

I hadn't thought of the "A Knight's Tale" angle, but it does seem eerily similar. Let's hope Duncan doesn't end up in the stocks getting pelted with fruit !
 

Aegon the Unworthy

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

KiwiBird said:
baelor vouchsaved for him, so in a way doesn't that make him a real knight, after all there are onl a few who would dare gainsay a prince

This reminds me a bit of the movie "a knight's tale"

It was exactly like the movie "A Knights Tale" (the part of the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard will hereafter be played by Heath Ledger)

But the question is, does the word of a prince make one a knight....I dont think a princes word is law (mayhaps a crown prince would be different)...so while no one wants to question the princes authority it still dont make him a knight....

So yes Dunk the Lunk is living a lie...but no one dare question it...and after everything works out Aegon, his squire throughout, becomes King...and by definition a divinely appointed King is infallible (I assume Westeros follows European protocol on that) so if you have to be a knight to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard...then it follows when appointed to the Kingsguard he becomes a knight...but I dont neccessarily know that last part to be true.

Anyone remember the wording when Joffrey appoints the Hound...? Dont they say something like "only knights may serve on the Kingsguard"...if so then Martin missed one of the cannon laws of a monarchy...the kings word is law.

So Im going with it 1) Yes he lied 2) It really dont make a bit of difference to me 3) When appointed to the Kingsguard it was all moot anyhow
 

WadeK

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

The only one I really imagine it would matter to is Duncan himself. He seems to be really struggling to be everything a knight should be...it would have to bother him at some point. I would bet that Mr. Martin will revisit the issue in one of the forthcoming stories, and I would imagine that he planned it that way from the beginning.
 

siched

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

So what? Big deal! A ser is a SER in his mind and his heart. Did Dunk and the lady do it in the stables to remember her by or did he just took a heck of a lock of hair? What with him becoming a kingsguard there could still be descendants of the lunk thick as a castle wall running around the time ASOIAF
 

Winters_Sorrow

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

siched said:
So what? Big deal! A ser is a SER in his mind and his heart. Did Dunk and the lady do it in the stables to remember her by or did he just took a heck of a lock of hair? What with him becoming a kingsguard there could still be descendants of the lunk thick as a castle wall running around the time ASOIAF

Well he wasn't a member of the Kingsguard then, so maybe.
There has been no mention of any offspring in the current series though.
 

MacMoney

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

Aegon the Unworthy said:
So yes Dunk the Lunk is living a lie...but no one dare question it...and after everything works out Aegon, his squire throughout, becomes King...and by definition a divinely appointed King is infallible (I assume Westeros follows European protocol on that) so if you have to be a knight to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard...then it follows when appointed to the Kingsguard he becomes a knight...but I dont neccessarily know that last part to be true.

Anyone remember the wording when Joffrey appoints the Hound...? Dont they say something like "only knights may serve on the Kingsguard"...if so then Martin missed one of the cannon laws of a monarchy...the kings word is law.

The Hound wasn't knighted. In fact, while he was offered knighthood, he flat out refused it. No one calls him Ser after him becoming Kingsguard. With that said, who knows. Perhaps he technically is, perhaps he isn't. As for Duncan, he isn't actually a knight in The Hedge Knight or A Sworn Sword but I think Aegon V knights/knighted him when he ascended to the throne.

As for Duncan's successors, there's serious speculation about Brienne being one. Her freakish tallness for one and the shield he found at the village in AFFC bears Duncan's arms if I'm not mistaken.
 

Koopa

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

the hound is not a knight, and Duncan states he is
 

Raven

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

Aegon: in fact, GRRM has said that Lords, even the Great Lords, can't make a knight unless they are a knight, and IIRC he has even said that kings can't do this, though I seem to recall that was in a private conversation with someone (was it Ran or Amok? one or the other) - only a knight can make a knight. That's canon in his world, so what happened in the real medieval world doesn't matter.

I can't recall anything to suggest that Westerosi kings are infallible, or divinely appointed, either. In fact, events in the books suggest this is not so - Cersei and Jaime seem to think Ned could have claimed the throne despite not worshipping the Seven, and Tommen is regarded as King despite not having (yet) had the blessing of the High Septon.

So, I can't see your argument for Dunk automatically becoming a knight when he is appointed to the KG. But some people think he might be secretly knighted in a later story. Me, I think he never was knighted at all...

Brienne is Dunk's descendant, btw: this was pretty much confirmed by GRRM.

And I think he just took the hair. ;)
 

Mirviriam

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

This post is long dead - but it was first link on google when I went to look up Duncan.

I just can't believe only one person got the point - Duncan was more of a knight than anyone else at the entire tournament - which was the whole point of the story. As stated by the knight who squired him...

(Paraphrased) ... a hedge knight is more true a knight than any other sort ... (end paraphrase)

Something about the definition of knight was to protect the people, not serve a king. Knights are simply men who help the king protect his people - which in the story everyone forgot...not that anyone remembers years later in Martin's series. That title is derived from kings long before the books take place & means that someone is a protector of the people, which should be the same as serving the king - as Martin blatantly pointed out when the crowd cheers for their protector as SER DUNCAN walks out to the trial.
 

The Imp

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Re: Ser Duncan the Tall Living a Lie?

I didn't read this thread.

Please have the courtesy NOT to put spoliers in thread titles and give a warning if a spoiler will be in a thread..

Thank you
 

Culhwch

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Spoilers duly noted. If you're concerned a thread may contain spoilers and yet there are no spoiler warnings in the title or first post, do contact a mod - we're always happy to help. The issue of spoilers has repeatedly come up over the years but unfortunately not everyone is going to be considerate.

Besides, I'm afraid your message might not get through to the OP, seeing as how he has not been around much since he posted this, back in mid-2006!
 

Qhorin Halfhand

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Ummm...

I thought the whole point was that he was lying about being a knight but acted like more a knight than any he meets? It was made incredibly obvious to me that he knows he's not a real knight!

This doesn't seem like something we need to discuss, I thought it was a given :p
 

Ghost of Harrenhal

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I realized as soon as I read it the first time. He hints at it on the first page I think... I figured you were supposed to know for the story. I took it to be important to the message; that a lowborn man could be more chivalrous than most knights or even a prince.
 

viZion

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The moral of the story is about as subtle as Sam at a buffet. I don't think anyone in the thread two years ago missed the point of the story. They were simply arguing about something completely different; specifically, who can make someone a knight in the Seven Kingdoms.
 

The Imp

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Spoilers duly noted. If you're concerned a thread may contain spoilers and yet there are no spoiler warnings in the title or first post, do contact a mod - we're always happy to help. The issue of spoilers has repeatedly come up over the years but unfortunately not everyone is going to be considerate.

Besides, I'm afraid your message might not get through to the OP, seeing as how he has not been around much since he posted this, back in mid-2006!

Sorry for not noticing the post date. I did send you an unrelated PM though :)
 

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