Terry Goodkind Wizard Rules

williamjm

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I thought the other Evil Chicken quote:

The bird let out a slow chicken cackle. It sounded like a chicken, but in her heart she knew it wasn't. In that instant, she completely understood the concept of a chicken that was not a chicken. This looked like a chicken, like most of the Mud People's chickens. But this was no chicken. This was evil manifest.
was possibly even more comically ridiculous.
 

Coolhand

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:eek:
Is this real?
I mean, that's seriously in print?
That's what he wrote?
:eek:
I'm torn and confused now.
On the one hand, I now know I must read these books. They sound wonderful. I mean it. I fell off my chair I was laughing so hard reading the "evil chicken" sequence. Seriously, I almost barfed up my own rib-cage with mirth.
On the other hand, I'm shivering with rage that the "Killer-Chicken Writer" got published when I have yet to be. I'm not saying I'm great. I'm not saying I'm good. I'm not even saying I'm passable. But I can tell you this, I can do a damn sight better than that.
Ooooh, the rage. The RAGE!!!!!
LOOK OUT!!! BEHIND YOU!!! CHICKEN!!!!!!:D
 

Winters_Sorrow

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Not only a chicken, but a manifestly evil one.

We need a chicken on the side of light to combat the coming of the Dark Lord...or something like that.

I can see it now. Margaret Weiss & Tracy Hickman got it all wrong - we needed the Chickenlance Chronicles!
 

Zadok

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the goat with its silent nobility is the obvious foil to the evil chicken thing that is not a chicken
 

Brys

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Coolhand said:
:eek:
Is this real?
I mean, that's seriously in print?
That's what he wrote?
:eek:
I'm torn and confused now.
On the one hand, I now know I must read these books. They sound wonderful. I mean it. I fell off my chair I was laughing so hard reading the "evil chicken" sequence. Seriously, I almost barfed up my own rib-cage with mirth.
On the other hand, I'm shivering with rage that the "Killer-Chicken Writer" got published when I have yet to be. I'm not saying I'm great. I'm not saying I'm good. I'm not even saying I'm passable. But I can tell you this, I can do a damn sight better than that.
Ooooh, the rage. The RAGE!!!!!
LOOK OUT!!! BEHIND YOU!!! CHICKEN!!!!!!:D

Coolhand, you've seen nothing yet. Trust me. The chicken bit is great, but then the hero also kicks in an eight-year old girl's teeth when the "thing" rises up in him, he slaughters a load of innocent peace protesters and there is of course the noble goat. (Not to mention the sheer cliff face named Blunt Mountain with a path running along it at near mid-height).
I think they marketed his books wrongly - the person who accepted the manuscript probably saw the unique comic potential of his books, but then they decided to market it as standard epic fantasy. It's quite clearly comical fantasy up there with the likes of Pratchett. I don't see how anyone can fail to laugh at the idea of the chicken that is not a chicken.

And a link to the best piece of Goodkind "fan fiction" in existence: http://www.mfbb.net/demonspawn/viewtopic.php?p=1953&mforum=demonspawn#1953

It's so bad it could be Goodkind himself writing it.
 

the_faery_queen

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goat?
he kicks in someone elses teeth? or is that same girl from book 1 or 2? i didn't know she was young?

my friend was actually scared of the chicken scene! i posted it in my lj, and got atonne of people laughing and saying, how on earth is this man in print, but my friend who likes goodkind (but not in an aggressive nasty way or he'd not be my friend!) said the scene scared him.
that scares me! :)
another friend pointed out how he was trying a stephan king, taking something ordinary and making it scarey, as with christine, a car. and yep, that can work. dolls, little girls, dogs, cats, all normal things, all can be made evil/scarey in a way that works (although it is a cliche) but not chickens. chickens are just too small and ridiculous and kickable.

tho monty python did make a good scarey bunny, they're far cleverer than goodkind. :)
although, of course, that bunny was still funny :)

you know, this does actually depress me. goodkind's book sare dripping with cliches, the very premise is a cliche, his writing is terrible, his treatement of women is dire, his characters are shallow and he has no plot yet he STILL landed himself an agent, a publsihing contract, and army of fans. which is more than so many other really talented writers ever manage! it is rather depressing
but inspiring too. cos if he can do it, then hopefully some better writers can too!
 

Brys

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Someone on the Martin forums explained quite well how a decent writer like King could have made that scene scary. But I think now having seen Goodkind's treatment of the evil chicken I won't ever be able to take evil chickens seriously again.
The girl is Princess Violet from book 1. Richard also seems to have a unique hatred for all children (he keeps getting angry at them - maybe its because they're more intelligent and more reasonable than him).

I think Goodkind shows that literary talent or even a competent command of the English (or equivalent) language is utterly unnecessary to get published, as long as you can sell the novels. And somehow, he does. I don't like Eddings, Jordan, Canavan and others, but they all show at least some linguistic competence and what they write isn't as utterly objectionable as what Goodkind writes. I don't know why Wizard's First Rule was published though. If you look at what John Jarrold is saying in the publishing sub-forum, it would be very unlikely for Goodkind to get published in the UK today if he was a first time writer.
 

Lirineth

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Bearing in mind what i have just read, what I don’t understand is how is it possible that the books not only keep on coming (No 10 is out) but are also so widely read?

I admit that I made it to book 4 (Ok, I confess to one of my sins) but eventually even me the sinner could go no further.

Which leaves me wondering how many more books are there going to be, as by now, I doubt that there is a situation left for Kahlan and Richard (see, I even remember their names) to go through.

I read the synopsis of some of the last books in the website called FANTASTIC FICTION.COM.UK (worth checking out) and in the best soap-opera style they have already gone through the ‘amnesia’ scenario. (bit much don't you think?)

Anyway, lets be gracious and wish Mr Goodkind all the very very best and a speedy …… and most needed/recommended end to this loooooooong saga. Whata ‘u ‘ink?
 

Werthead

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the_faery_queen said:
goat?
tho monty python did make a good scarey bunny, they're far cleverer than goodkind. :)
although, of course, that bunny was still funny :)

Iain Banks did a brilliant tribute to the bunny scene in his first novel, The Wasp Factory. Let's just say it involved an air rifle and a minefield.
 

the_faery_queen

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i've read the wasp factory. now that's a good book.
i don't know how goodkind got printed in the first place, let alone how he would make it now!

and that was the girl i was thinking of, she was 8? see, i don't notice a lot when i read goodkind, i was so bored of the characters and disgusted by the rape, that i tended to not notice a tonne of stuff (such as richard's own rape) but i do remember him kicking in a girl's teeth cos she DARED to speak badly of kahlan. i had NO idea that girl was a child. that's really disgusting! so what if she was nasty and horrible? she's a child! children can be like that. you don't kick their teeth in.

god. i am even more disgusted now! *shudder* can i say, i think goodkind is a really horrible man? well i think i did, but there you are :) i am just really urked out now.

unfortunatly, even when this awful series is over, the man will still hav a legion of fans supporting him in all his future endevors. he won't bother to get any better, he already thinks he's perfect, i think we can expect a lot more nasty boring stupid rubbish from him for a long time :(

i feel sad now. but i do want to say, how much i LOVE being able to say stuff like this without having people jump down my throats (as i've mentioned that's been my past experience)
 

j d worthington

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I'm not a Goodkind fan. I tried reading something several years ago, and found the writing so awful that I simply couldn't bear putting myself through that (and I'm generally a fairly tolerant reader when trying a new writer's work -- I like to give them a fair chance). But what I think is the most telling thing of all is that, in my various trips to used bookstores, when I look into any decent-sized sf/f section, I very seldom find any Mieville; I find a few Feist, some Erikson, some Jordan (rather a lot, really), a fair amount of Brooks, but I see tons of Goodkind's work. Now, people simply don't let go of books they value -- which is why I've sometimes put in as much as 20+ years finding some books I was after. They certainly don't let them go in such quantities; not in droves like this. I kid you not, on my most recent trip I found enough Goodkind cluttering the shelves to provide for several yards of landfill in building new roads. I'm not fond of bashing any writer, particularly, but this alone should tell you something....
 

Brys

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Werthead said:
Iain Banks did a brilliant tribute to the bunny scene in his first novel, The Wasp Factory. Let's just say it involved an air rifle and a minefield.

Ah yes, Frank Cauldhame and bunnies - or animals of any sort for that matter. The Wasp Factory is a brilliant book, let alone debut. Goodkind should read it to see how you can use objectionable content very well.

I very seldom find any Mieville

I'm seeing a lot more of him now than before, and thankfully, Jordan and Goodkind at my local bookstores are starting to take up less space (to the extent that they only have 5-6 novels of each series there, while they have all of Erikson's published so far - a good sign). But then, I've never seen Goodkind's novels absent from the shelves, while its not rare to be unable to find Mieville or M John Harrison or any number of good authors. But the fact is Goodkind sells. I don't know how, but he does it. Hal Duncan wrote this about Brooks http://www.nightshadebooks.com/discus/messages/53/5178.html#POST90542
But with Goodkind, you have to go a step further. Not just do they have to accept
sloppy writing which, on a pure craftsmanship level, doesn't hold together in terms of style and/or content, where dialogue is stilted, where pacing is erratic, where the prose is rhthymically clumsy and/or syntactically amibiguous, where -- from individual character actions right up to abstract plot structure -- motivations underlying interactions are shallow and/or implausible and/or incoherent... where, in short, a work can be evaluated according to some fairly objective criteria (as an act of communication and as an act of intrication -- i.e. complex pattern-making) and where, by those standards, it just doesn't cut it...
They have to accept having Goodkind's philosophy rammed down their throats and some truly sickening acts committed by a hero who has no regrets of maiming children and slaughtering innocent peace protesters. And he's not an anti-hero, either. That's what's most disturbing - people are reading Goodkind's novels in the millions and those millions of readers are, on the whole, failing to find such acts objectionable. There's been a lot of criticism about fantasy readers mindless escapism actually representing something much more disturbing (see again Hal Duncan: http://notesfromthegeekshow.blogspot.com/2005/07/duh-tell-us-about-rabbits-george.html), with the basic criticisms of racism, discrimination and generally ultra-conservative politics that are rarely treated seriously in mainstream political discussion, but Goodkind takes it to a new level of warmongering neo-facism at times, and his fans just sit back, ignore it because it's a "good story". Some of them find it gets a bit preachy, but hey, it's just a fantasy, so don't read too much into it. Just because some of Goodkind's novels may be approaching a real version of the Iron Dream, doesn't mean you should take note according to the fans. They see a straightforward fantasy novel of good vs bad which provides them with the escapism they want. It's didactic fiction and at times almost pure propaganda - the good are invariably whose ideals are exactly Goodkind's own and the bad are inevitably his ideological opponents, whether they be communists, socialists, liberals, or irritating little children.

PS I have nothing against Goodkind fans on the whole, and there are some very intelligent fans who understand these issues but decide that ultimately if they enjoy the story enough they can overcome its dubious politics. Or they may agree with them, which is fair enough. The problem is that to me it seems a lot of fans believe this is mindless entertainment and if they actually paid attention they may be shocked by the content. A lot of you here (not exactly fans of Goodkind I know) and elsewhere have responded with shock from these quotes - it makes me think that the average Goodkind fan probably deliberately forget the distasteful bits, so it seems like a nice, straightforward epic fantasy.
 

j d worthington

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Just to clarify: I was referring to secondhand bookstores. I can find Mieville, et al. in the new; but people hold onto his books (as well as some of the others mentioned) to read and reread. Goodkind is very much "reading material", disposable. I think that also plays into why he sells so well -- it's like a Barbara Cartland novel, or a Harlequin romance of fantasy. And, from what I've been able to tell, of about the same literary quality, unfortunately....
 

ScottSF

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Coolhand said:
:eek:
Is this real?
I mean, that's seriously in print?
That's what he wrote?
:eek:

On the other hand, I'm shivering with rage that the "Killer-Chicken Writer" got published when I have yet to be. I'm not saying I'm great. I'm not saying I'm good. I'm not even saying I'm passable. But I can tell you this, I can do a damn sight better than that.
:D

Judging from the first book "Wizards first Rule" your chances of being more deserving of being published is very high. There was some potential and a few good ideas but many sore thumbs sticking out IMO. Perhaps the fact that his books are still published is an indication that he got better in the subsequent books but I'm not willing to take that chance.
 

Brys

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From everything I've heard - including his fans - his books get worse as the series go on. Wizard's First Rule is the one most people find good, or bearable, in the series.
 

jenna

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ah goodkind, the scourge of the fantasy world! i can't tell you how happy it makes me to read about how much everyone hates him, after having spent time years ago on the official site (which funnily enough has a population that could have stepped right out of one of his books!). it will definitely be interesting to see what he does after this series is finished though. i'm wondering whether he'll write a new series or whether he'll just cut to the chase and declare himself a living god and open a commune for all his crazy little zealots. (where i can only imagine there'll be tents and all the girls will be sent down there to be gang raped. that does seem to be his favourite fantasy after all...)

oh, and i just read that thread that Brys linked to, and now i understand that we were wrong about goodkind not being a good writer. here is the real deal:

"just because you write falsehood using fansy words and long sentences doesnt mean your actually right or know what your talking about. If you paiyed closer attention to TG's books you would have learned a long time ago that less is more."
 

j d worthington

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jenna said:
"just because you write falsehood using fansy words and long sentences doesnt mean your actually right or know what your talking about. If you paiyed closer attention to TG's books you would have learned a long time ago that less is more."

Er, um, could someone parse that sentence(?) for me, please?...
 

jenna

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j.d obviously your not paiying close enuf atention to what he wrote.

*shudders* writing that put me into serious physical pain!
i have read through a lot of that forum today, and i have to say it's a bloody great laugh! i can't believe it's actually more of a shambles than the official forum.. the funniest thing is that a lot of it is meant to be a joke, but there's some people on there who are taking it seriously. and that "fan fiction" OMG! "whom? indeed." !!!!!
 

j d worthington

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jenna said:
j.d obviously your not paiying close enuf atention to what he wrote.

*shudders* writing that put me into serious physical pain!

So.... when should I expect the medical bill?;)
 

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