Character views and opinions

[Teresa Edgerton]

Hmmm... being totally misinterpreted, I'm just gonna step out of the conversation...

Well, assuming you even read this, since you've left the conversation: Steve said the author's views don't matter because it's fiction. To me that sounded dismissive of fiction. Then you echoed it. If that is not what you meant (or if it's not what either of you meant it to sound like) why don't you both explain what was meant.

My contention is that it matters more because it's fiction. Because fiction can be more persuasive. People have some suspicion they might be lied to under other circumstances, but fiction can slip in right under their guard. Also, people don't always read critically, and especially not with fiction, where they can be in such a hurry to get on to the next thing that happens they rush on through without thinking at all. (It's not like in school where they expect to be tested and presumably pay more attention.) And many readers do believe that if a character said something—especially a character they like, and sometimes the characters they like are not very nice people—then that is what the author thinks, too. And it's not like that is never true. If we don't want other people to end up believing in something because we "said so" (something we would actually never think or say) then shouldn't we be careful of what we write and how we write it? If not to avoid causing offense, then to avoid being misinterpreted.

And it's not about conforming or being liked, Harpo. Right now, conforming and building up an adoring following among readers tends to require writing something harsh and bloody, with lots of violence against women, and lots of anti-hero characters. (Unless it is meant to be comedic.) Is that shifting? I don't think so, though it undoubtedly will eventually. Things do eventually change. But right now, in spite of all this talk about people being condemned for being offensive, the same authors (and their clones) are getting published and bought by readers this year as last year and the year before and the year before that and ....

 

[Steve Harrison]

This is a good example of the writer (me) knowing what I meant, but obviously not being clear.

I trust that most readers know they are reading fiction and because it's fiction, do they really care what the author thinks? I make the assumption that they don't. I'm pretty boring, so I assume they are more interested in the book.

My novels are about the story and the characters and I don't want my readers to even think about my involvement. I want them to forget I'm there and become immersed in the tale. And even if they set out to discern my personal views from my novels, all of which include good and bad people and every kind in between, it will hopefully be impossible to find out.

That's why, to me, my views are not important in a work of fiction, hence my 'it doesn't matter' comments. And that is highly respectful of fiction - and my readers - not dismissive.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Well, I appreciate that you took the time to explain yourself. Thank you.

I don't agree, however. I think that is much too naive, because I think that most people, especially with their favorite writers, look for those writers in their work. Aside from wanting to know more about the writer than they can get from the bio in the book, that's what they were taught to do in school, where the questions they are asked by their teachers tend to be, "What did the writer mean by this? What did the writer mean by that?" In college they may be encouraged to dig deeper and come up with their own answers, but in high school it's generally about bite-sized answers that can be filled in on standardized tests.

 

[Steve Harrison]

It's not a question of agreeing or naivety. It's simply my opinion of my writing and my intentions for my work. My novels will never be studied in school and my goal is to produce exciting, entertaining and escapist stories. I doubt my readers are looking for anything above and beyond that when they pick up my books. And nor should they, as they will be sorely disappointed!

 

[The Big Peat]

It's not a question of agreeing or naivety. It's simply my opinion of my writing and my intentions for my work. My novels will never be studied in school and my goal is to produce exciting, entertaining and escapist stories. I doubt my readers are looking for anything above and beyond that when they pick up my books. And nor should they, as they will be sorely disappointed!

But the point isn't whether your books will be studied by school, it's about whether they'll be read by people who read (to an extent) like they were taught at school; and its not whether you put in anything more than excitement, its whether other people will read things into them that you didn't put there.

And since I've seen/participated in conversations about whether Lovecraft/Howard/Eddings was racist, whether Robert Jordan was a misogynist, misandrist or both, whether Piers Anthony was pro-paedophilia, whether Jim Butcher/Mark Lawrence/Patrick Rothfuss are chauvinistic/misogynists, whether Moorcock's comments about Tolkien were justified, whether Tolkien's/Lewis'/Pullman's religious views affected their work, whether Feist's views on romance changed after his divorce, whether Pratchett was a pagan... I think that yes, absolutely it will happen regardless of authorial intent. Absolutely. And this is the thin end of the wedge on people caring about the creator's voice and who they are and what the work is saying; this is me taking a minute or two to think of conversations I've had in the last few years within this genre along.

I think it's best not to overdo this. Yes, people (lots of people) do absolutely deconstruct even straightforwards pieces of entertainment and see creative voices there - there's guides to 80s action films that have space for "Stupid Political Content" - but it doesn't mean much for 99% of authors. I do think creators should take a second to think about the implications of what they've written and be sure there's nothing there that they really wouldn't want to say - but for most of us a few seconds is enough.

But sometimes those few seconds will stop you from making a mistake you will regret.

 

[sknox]

Intent matters. As an author, I want to use words intentionally, not accidentally.

For example, say there's a group of men in a scene having a conversation about some other group. Every one of them, when speaking of other men, use their last names but when mentioning a woman, they refer to her using her first name, maybe in a diminutive.

Now, if I do this intentionally, that's one thing; do it accidentally, without realizing it, that's another. If a reader points this out, I ought to listen. (this behavior, btw, was something my son noticed in a forum discussing the various Captain Marvels)

As I said, it's about intent. My first novel has a main character who owns a slave. The setting is late Roman Empire, and I deliberately gave the lead a slave to use as a commentator and critic, in the tradition of Greek comedy. Just having slaves because it is "historical" isn't enough because it doesn't serve the story. As the author, part of my job is to be deliberate and informed in my choices concerning characters, setting, plot, voice, words, all of it.

At least some of the criticisms I've encountered about other authors comes because the author was either unaware of cultural appropriation or sexism or whatever, or didn't appear to care. I'm a historian by training. We regularly critique older works because of rampant nationalism, racism, or sexism in the work because the result is poor history, to be fixed by later work. It's legitimate and constructive. I don't get a free pass just because I write fiction.

All that said, I'm glad I write fantasy. These waters would be much tougher to navigate were I writing contemporary fiction.

 

[svalbard]

Of course if you don't like it don't buy i...nah, I am not going to get smacked down for saying that again

Enjoy the debate folks.

 

[CTRandall]

I think there isn't that much distance between Theresa and Steve Harrison. Steve Harrison seems to be describing a more intuitive approach to the question of "what would the characters do" while Theresa is advocating a more analytical, reflective awareness on part of the author when answering the same question.

The dangers of the intuitive approach are twofold: first, that it blindly copies the experiences (including prejudices) of the author and his/her culture and, second, that the characters end up acting and sounding like every other character in every other half-baked piece of fiction on the market. @sknox gave a great example of how a lack of thinking reproduces prejudices.

The dangers of the analytical, reflective approach are that the author's voice becomes too "present" in the book, i.e. the reader can tell that they are reading the author's words, rather than the character's, and that characters act in ways that don't necessarily fit with the cultures presented in the story. I'm reading Seraphina's Lament by Sarah Chorn at the moment, and Chorn's attitudes towards gender are regularly flagged up in a way that is obtrusive on the story (unsurprisingly, this seems to be happening a lot in fantasy at the moment).

I don't think either of you fall strictly into one category or the other. I suspect that, in regards to characterization, at least, you both use a combination of the two approaches, with Steve leaning more towards intuitive and Theresa leaning more towards analytical.

I know I've drastically simplified your arguments here, so apologies in advance if I completely twisted your views around.

I cannot imagine a moment when I need/will stop to consider if I'm hurting someones' feelings.

Yeah, I read your horror collection. Or should I say

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I think an intuitive approach to writing works well—that's what I use myself, so naturally I would. But that's for the early drafts. When editing the work, the part where the author asks, "Would the character really say that? Is he doing that because he'd really do that or because it serves my lovely plot? What does he mean by that?" I think we should also start asking, "Did that come out the way I intended it to?" Or work with critiquers who aren't afraid to ask, "You do know how that looks? Did you mean for it to look that way?"

As an author, I want to use words intentionally, not accidentally.

Yes, yes, yes. That is what I've been trying to say in a nutshell.

When inspiration flows, I think an author should go with it. But editing and revising should be done with intention.

 

[sknox]

>a lack of thinking reproduces prejudices.
"Many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
I used to say that came from William James, but it turns out the source is not entirely clear. In any case, it's a fine aphorism.

 

[Steve Harrison]

This is a good discussion, so thanks everyone.

I think the logical thing is for everyone to buy my novel and make up their own minds

@CTRandall makes some good points and I'm sure I use a mix of an intuitive and analytic approach to my writing. My writing is very deliberate and considered and I try to get inside the heads of my characters so they can express themselves independently of my thoughts and opinions (as far as that is possible, of course). I write from multiple POVs, so my intention is to write from their perspectives, not mine. In reality, though, a pathological murderer consumed by hatred and revenge, for example, can only be my interpretation of what I think it would be like inside the character's head. Fortunately, I don't have first hand experience.

I treat my readers with respect and assume they are very similar to me, as I write stories I want to read. I also assume they are intelligent enough to recognise my intentions to provide a thoughtful, inventive piece of escapism, not a subversive attempt to indoctrinate them into a world of radical and dangerous ideas. But if they come to that conclusion, they are grown-ups who took that risk when they read the blurb and decided to read the book.

No writer can completely disentangle their own personality and worldview from their work, and nor should they as that's what makes each writer unique. I want my readers to believe - while reading - that they are being told a story by a bunch of different people, with the only link to me - the author - being the overall tone and 'flavour' of the work. It's a huge challenge, but extremely enjoyable.

 

[Other Reader]

I'm new - but after searching Patrick Rothfuss, I ended up back at a series by Jordan that I read a while ago and feared reading because it brought me bad luck. I can only offer this - the Rand character became ridiculous and unmanageable. It was a tedious and political trek through gender politics - but worst of all, was the race from across the sea, an idea that destroyed all power in the world too flippantly with a fine silver chain.

Robert Jordan f***ed his story. Rothfuss hasn't yet.

 

[Other Reader]

And I predict he won't.